Crimes seen: The ICC chases Israel and Hamas

This episode delves into the International Criminal Court's (ICC) issuance of arrest warrants for leaders from both Israel and Hamas, marking a pivotal moment in international law and its application to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

1. The ICC has issued arrest warrants for leaders from both Israel and Hamas, a first in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
2. The charges focus on the denial of humanitarian aid to Gaza by Israeli leaders and the orchestration of massacres by Hamas leaders.
3. There is significant international backlash, particularly from the U.S., against the ICC's actions, criticizing them as creating a false moral equivalence.
4. The episode discusses the broader implications for international law and its enforcement.
5. The likelihood of actual trials or arrests is low, given the non-membership of the involved parties in the ICC.

1: Introduction to the ICC's Action

Overview of the ICC's unprecedented move to issue arrest warrants for Israeli and Hamas leaders. Jason Palmer: "The International Criminal Court has weighed in on the war in Gaza."

2: Charges and International Reactions

Details of the charges against Israeli and Hamas leaders and the global reaction. Greg Karlstrom: "This is the first time the court’s prosecutor has sought arrest warrants in the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

3: Implications for International Law

Discussion on how these warrants challenge and potentially change international legal standards. Greg Karlstrom: "It's important for the court to look impartial."

4: Prospects for Justice

Evaluation of the potential outcomes and effectiveness of the ICC's actions. Jason Palmer: "It's very hard to imagine any of these individuals being brought before the court."

1. Understand the role and decisions of international courts like the ICC to better grasp global justice mechanisms.
2. Stay informed about international conflicts to understand their legal and humanitarian dimensions.
3. Support humanitarian efforts in conflict zones through donations and advocacy.
4. Engage in dialogues and educational activities to promote a balanced understanding of global justice issues.
5. Follow reliable news sources for ongoing updates on international law and its impacts.

The chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court has caused outrage by requesting arrest warrants for both Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and Hamas’s leaders. China’s young people, on the lookout for safe ways to invest modest sums, have settled on collecting little gold beans (13:20). And Hawaii may soon have the first official state gesture (17:04).

People

Karim Khan, Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed Daef, Ishmael Hania, Benjamin Netanyahu, Yoav Galant

Companies

None

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Greg Karlstrom

Content Warnings:

None

When you're ready to pop the question, the last thing you want to do is second guess the ring at blue nile.com. comma, you can design a one of a kind ring with the ease and convenience of shopping online. Choose your diamond and setting. When you found the one, you'll get it delivered right to your door. Go to bluenile.com and use promo code listen to get dollar 50 off your purchase of dollar 500 or more.

That's code. Listen at blue nile.com for dollar 50 off your purchase. Bluenile.com code listen.

Jason Palmer
The Economist hello and welcome to the intelligence from the Economist. I'm your host, Jason Palmer. Every weekday we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Gold it's the safe haven asset of the ages. What changes is the physical form it takes. Nuggets? Necklaces? Nope.

The hot trend in China right now is tiny little beans of it. And if I told you to hang loose, would it conjure in your mind a gesture? Thumb and pinky, finger extended, other fingers folded down. That shaka is extremely widely used in Hawaii, so much so, it might just become the first official state gesture.

But first, the International Criminal court has weighed in on the war in Gaza. Yesterday, chief prosecutor Karim Khan announced he had requested some significant arrest warrants. On the basis of evidence collected and examined and analyzed by my office, I have reasonable grounds to believe that three senior leaders of Hamas, Yahya Sinwa, Mohammed Daef, and Ishmael Hania, bear criminal responsibility. He proceeded to lay out a litany of charges, both war crimes and crimes against humanity. And then he began again.

Karim Khan
I can also confirm today that I have reasonable grounds to believe, on the basis of evidence collected and examined by my office, that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Minister of Defence Yoav Galant bear criminal responsibility for the following international crimes. Perhaps predictably, there was outrage that leaders both of Hamas and Israel should be accused on the international stage of the highest crimes, outrage that they should even be mentioned in the same breath. This is a big moment for the war in Gaza. It's also a big moment for the international criminal court itself. Greg Karlstrom is a Middle east correspondent for the Economist.

Greg Karlstrom
That's the first time the court's prosecutor has sought arrest warrants in the context of the israeli palestinian conflict, the first time he saw them against a democratic country in the form of Israel here. And it's something that will have significant political consequences both for Prime Minister Netanyahu in Israel and for many of Israel's allies around the world. So let's start with what's actually on the charge sheet here. What did the prosecutor actually say about Mister Netanyahu? He is one of two israeli officials who the ICC's prosecutor is seeking an arrest warrant for.

The other is Yoav Galant, the defense minister. And I think a couple of things that are significant from the charge sheet. The first is that it's only these two officials. It's not anyone from the military. There had been some talk that perhaps the israeli army chief or other generals might also have warrants issued for them.

But the prosecutor chose to focus on political officials rather than military officials. And if you read the charges, they are really focused on the question of aid going into Gaza, the question of Israel's denial of food, water, other essentials, the use of starvation and deprivation as a weapon of war. And that is, of course, something that is a war crime. And it goes back to the early hours of the war, when Joav Gallant said that Gaza would be placed under a total siege for two weeks. Israel didn't allow anything to get into the territory.

No food, water, medicine. And although in recent weeks it has been allowing more aid into Gaza, there is overwhelming evidence that for months it had this policy of, at first denying completely and then heavily restricting the flow of aid. And that has created a situation where even now the World Food Program says there is a famine in the northern part of Gaza. There are other parts of Gaza that are on the brink of famine. There is widespread human suffering because of these restrictions on aid.

So the ICC's prosecutor, he was clear in his statement that Israel, like any other state, has a right to defend. But what he said is that the means Israel was using to defend itself were criminal. And conversely, what did he say about the Hamas leadership? The case there is aimed at three Hamas officials. Yahya Senwar, the leader of the group in Gaza, Hamad Daef, the head of its military wing, and Ismail Hania, who is the overall leader of Hamas but based in Qatar.

The charges against them obviously relate to the massacre on October 7. These men are accused of overseeing murder, torture, rape, hostage taking. Of course, the evidence for that was either documented by Hamas militants themselves, who videotaped many of the atrocities they committed on October 7, or it's been corroborated by forensic evidence and extensive testimony since then. I think the one interesting choice that the ICC's prosecutor is making here is including chania in these charges. There has been a lot of talk over the past eight months from people, from analysts and people who watch Hamas about whether or not Haniya and the rest of the external leadership of Hamas knew in full detail what was going to happen on October 7, or whether they were almost kept out of the loop as a security measure.

And so I think, should there one day be a trial, should this go forward, it'll be interesting to hear what sort of evidence the ICCs prosecutor has that the external leadership may have been involved in the planning and organizing of the October 7 massacre. But part of whats significant here is putting israeli leadership and Hamas leadership on the same page in the same doc, if you like. Whats been the reaction to that? The reaction has been one of outrage from officials in Israel, from officials in the United States. There has been a lot of talk about the ICC equating Israel and Hamas.

And I personally don't think that's what the court is doing here. But that is what we've heard from the likes of Prime Minister Netanyahu, who said the decision was outrageous and called it a moral outrage of historic proportions. Hamas massacred 1200 Jews, raped jewish women, burned jewish babies, took hundreds hostage. Now, in the face of these horrors, Mister Khan creates a twisted and false moral equivalence between the leaders of Israel and the henchmen of Hamas. This is like creating a moral equivalence after September 11 between President Bush and Osama bin Laden, or during World War two between FDR and Hitler.

Then there was Joe Biden, who spoke at an event last night marking jewish Heritage month. And he rejected the ICC's application for these arrest warrants against israeli leaders. He rejected it outright. Whatever these warrants may imply, there is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas.

Joe Biden
And it's clear Israel wants to do all it can to ensure civilian protection. But let me be clear. Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what's happening is not genocide. We reject that. Now, he's linking the ICC's announcement there to a separate case that South Africa has brought before the international court of justice, which is a different court in that case, has charged Israel with committing genocide in Gaza.

Greg Karlstrom
We've heard similar reactions from Republicans in Congress, from a number of Democrats in Congress, Rishi Sunak, the british prime minister, other officials and diplomats across Europe. There's been a lot of outrage. And again, much of it has been about this idea of equivalence. Now, I don't think that's what the court is doing. If you read the statement from the ICC's prosecutor here, at no point is he trying to equate the conduct of Israel and Hamas.

He's not comparing states and non state actors. That's not the job of the prosecutor, that's not the job of the court. What he's doing is comparing their conduct in Israel and in Gaza to international law. And he is finding that, in his opinion, both Israel and Hamas violated international law. But they're being held to the same standard here.

And if there is such a thing as international law and a rules based order, then that is how international law is supposed to work. But do you think this will actually affect the conflict now? Is it intended to affect the conflict now? I suspect it's not a coincidence that this announcement comes as Israel is beginning its big push into Rafah in southern Gaza. And as the ICJ is hearing now for the fourth time, a south african petition asking Israel to stop its offensive in Gaza.

But I don't think it will have any immediate impact on the war. Israel is usually happy to ignore international bodies. It's done that with the UN for decades. It has basically ignored previous recommendations from the ICJ over the past few months regarding its conduct in the war in Gaza. And so what we've seen over the past even 24 hours is Yoav Galant, the defense minister, promising to expand further the israeli offensive in Rafah.

Israeli troops have now advanced pretty close to the city center. Almost a million Palestinians have fled Rafah for other parts of Gaza. And the israeli army is talking about a war that might still go on for another six months. So I think, regardless of what happens at the ICC, whether judges at the court do indeed agree to issue arrest warrants for these officials from Israel and from Hamas, I don't think it's going to in any way convince Israel to stop the war in Gaza. But what about the longer run?

Jason Palmer
Weve talked on the show before about the ICC and the degree to which justice in its eyes is served in the long run. I think its very hard to imagine any of these five individuals ever being brought before the court. On the Hamas side, Senua Deif are thought to be hiding in tunnels underneath Gaza. If the Israelis were to find them in the coming months of war there, they would probably kill them rather than hand them over to the ICC. And Ismail Hania, the groups leader, spends most of his time in countries like Qatar and Turkey, which are not signatories to the Rome Statute.

Greg Karlstrom
So they're not members of the ICC, and they wouldn't be obligated to hand him over to the court. So I think none of the three Hamas officials are likely to ever appear in the dock. And it's something similar on the israeli side. Israel is not a member of the court, it would not hand over its own prime minister or defense minister to face trial. They wouldn't be able to travel to the 120 or so countries that are members of the ICC, but they would still be free to go to the United States, which is not a signatory of the Rome Statute and is very dismissive of the court here.

Jason Palmer
All due respect, what is the point is there's nothing more than a principled stand by the ICC. The principled stand is part of the point. I think it's important for the court to look impartial. And if the court had declined to file any charges against israeli officials, it would reinforce this longstanding narrative that the ICC only exists to prosecute african dictators and enemies of the west, but it never goes after countries that are western allies. So I think the principle itself is important for the ICC here, and I think it also does for Israel.

Greg Karlstrom
It does mean something in terms of Israel's self perception, how Israelis see themselves if Netanyahu and Gallant are indicted here, if the court issues arrest warrants, they will join the likes of Vladimir Putin, who had a warrant issued for him last year for the illegal deportation of children from Ukraine. Umar al Bashir, the sudanese dictator who was indicted in 2009 for genocide in Darfur. Israeli officials would join this club of despots and genocide heirs. And that is not how Israelis like to see themselves. That is not how Israelis like to see their government.

And I think that in the long run, does have implications for how Israel sees itself and also how many of Israels allies around the world see it. Thanks very much for your time, Greg. Thank you.

Joe Biden
You know, some people enjoy composing their own music chord by chord, and others are happiest when they come across that one perfect song. Work is not a lot different than that. Whether you prefer building your own workflow or using a pre made template with Monday.com, you and the team can work in a way that's comfortable for everyone. Tap the banner to go to Monday.com and build your own amazing workflow. Or find an awesome template.

No judgment.

Jason Palmer
Okay, who remembers this sound?

Coins in a piggy bank an age old way for kids to save up pocket money. These days in China, young people are also putting money away, not in coins, but rather in gold beans.

Gold, traditionally a refuge for investors in times of uncertainty, has jumped in value in global markets over the last few months. Gabriel Crossley is a China correspondent for the Economist. People are worried about geopolitics and inflation. In China, the central bank is acquiring masses of metal to reduce its reliance on us dollars. But there's another gold rush taking place here as well, and that's among China's young people.

Why are young people piling into gold then? Young people here don't really have that much cash, but they do want to save. And that's a bit tricky because the stock markets have not been doing very well lately. And real estate, which is the traditional investment in China, has also been struggling. China's real estate woe is contributing to the country's ongoing economic slowdown.

Greg Karlstrom
China property sector see some pressure sagging property sector remains a drag on data. The quickest way to restore consumer confidence is by stabilizing the housing market. Prices of homes have been falling for ten consecutive months. So compared to all of that, gold looks like a pretty good investment. But why is this gold that we're talking about in bean form?

Jason Palmer
How did that become the way beans are good? Because they're tiny. They're little chunks of gold which weigh about a gram. And you can buy those from jewelers or banks here for about 600 yuan. That's about $80.

That's pretty affordable for young people compared with buying, say, a gold bar. And if you've got a pretty low starting salary, you've just entered the job market. You can still do this sort of regular investment of buying a bean a month or something. That gives people a path they can see to retirement. And social media is really driving the demand for beans.

How are beans featuring in chinese social media then? People are sharing their bean buying strategies. They're also sharing pictures and videos of their accumulated beans, which look quite satisfying in a nice glass piggy bank you can shake. It makes a nice clear clatter. People say it gives them a sense of accomplishment.

Basically, it lets you show off your wealth without really having that much wealth. So what's your take here? Are chinese young people onto something here? Should we all have little clearance? Piggy banks full of beans the problem with gold is you can mix in other metals before you sell it, because consumers here are being burned, because they're buying beans online in these little envelopes.

And it turns out they are not always pure gold. And sometimes little chunks of the bean have been shaved off. So you're getting less gold than you're paid for. To get around this, of course, people are again looking to social media. There are tips online how to stay safe.

One is to apply a blowtorch to your beans. If it turns black, then you've got a problem. For the moment, though, it looks like chinese yelp people think gold beans are the way to go. Thanks very much for your time, Gabriel. Thanks, Jason.

Joe Biden
In Hawaii, a common way to greet each other is to use a hand signal known as the shaka. Marguerite Howell is an executive producer of audio at the Economist. You make it by folding your middle fingers down, extending the thumb and the little finger, and then maybe twisting the hand for emphasis. It's otherwise known as the hang loose symbol that is sometimes, you know, used by surfers. And in Hawaii, people use it as a greeting to express goodwill, to let someone pass while they're driving.

The symbol is so popular and so identified with Hawaii that there's been this movement that has started to make it an official state symbol. So recently, lawmakers passed a bill, and it's been sent to the governor, Josh Green, and he has indicated that he will likely sign it as well. And if it does get signed, it will become America's first state gesture. The bill was introduced by Senator Glenn Wakai. It's important for Hawaii to take ownership of the shaka because it's an authentic gesture from Hawaii.

Glenn Wakai
When you come to Hawaii, you'll see that the shaka is on many things, on t shirts, on storefronts. It's a symbol that you see throughout the state of Hawaii. So there's some economic value to having this symbol kind of almost copyrighted for the state of Hawaii as we share it with the world.

Jason Palmer
So how did it get this far, though, from kind of just playful gesture to state symbol? Well, I would say the gesture has always been popular, but I think the recognition that people wanted to do something more than just use the gesture started when Steve Hsu, a filmmaker, was working on a film about the origins of the shaka, and he founded something called Project Shaka, which he says is a movement to promote the use of this gesture to spread compassion and understanding. They used the shaka as a logo for the film, and a lot of people were interested in it, and it led to him trying to campaign to make it as a state symbol. I had done a little outline logo that we use in our film, and because the symbol has been so well received, I mean, I even had state legislators say, can we license that from you and use it as our state seal of approval? And then it occurred to me that, well, if they want to use it in that fashion, then it really should be for the people.

Greg Karlstrom
It should be a state symbol that all should enjoy. So Steve said he wrote the draft of the bill, which he gave to Senator Glenn Wackai, which was introduced into the Senate. You said this would, if it becomes law, become a first state official gesture. But I'm aware that american states do have quite a collection of various symbols and what have you. Florida's alligator, for example.

Joe Biden
Yes. When I started looking into this, I was pretty amazed by all the sort of unusual and creative symbols that states seem to come up with. When I did a quick hand count on the state symbols website, I came up with over 1670, and I'm sure there are more popping up all the time. You get tons of flora and fauna and exotic kind of cultural ideas that are associated with certain states. Some of the ones that struck me, the whoopie pie is the official state treat of Maine.

South Carolina has a state dance the shag. I think one of my favorite ones, though, is New Mexico, which has an official state aroma. The scent of green chili roasting in the fall. That is silly. Sorry.

Jason Palmer
To New Mexico. When did all of this start, though? This needs to have a bunch of state symbols. The idea caught fire in 1893 at the world's fair in Chicago. I mean, states were making flags and whatnot already, but they kind of spread into other realms.

Joe Biden
The more unusual realms that we're talking about today, it all got kicked off with flowers. According to Ryan Prager, who manages the website state symbols USA, every state was represented by a garland. And from there the practice blossomed. Okay, so, but state flags is one thing, and maybe having a state flower makes a reasonable amount of sense, but it sounds as if things got a little bit out of hand. So, yeah, it started out with every state being represented by a flower, but now it's moved on to, as we've seen, all sorts of unusual things.

And one that also really struck me was that some states now have an official microbe. The first attempt started back in Wisconsin. Well, over a decade ago. We were having a meeting in the bacteriology department, talking about how to get the word about the importance of microbes out to the world. Joe Handelsman is the director of the Wisconsin Institute for Discovery at the University of Wisconsin Madison.

Greg Karlstrom
The public view of microbes is so often that they're just germs, but what we don't recognize is how healthy microbes keep us. But they're invisible to us, so we don't appreciate them. Staff in the department said, well, maybe we could have a state symbol, you know, a state microbe, because that's what kids learn about. And if there's a state fossil, there certainly should be a state microbe. So she meant it as a joke.

But in the end we decided, no, that's actually a great idea. The first attempts to get it passed into law failed in 2009, but it's back on the agenda again this year. Now, I don't want to sound ungrateful for all of these various symbols, but I mean, why go to all this trouble and create movements and websites and spend time on the floor in places of government to get? Is it just pride? Is it nothing more than pride in one state?

Joe Biden
Making a state simple? They can also be an easy win for lawmakers because they're kind of fun and they often draw bipartisan support. You know, everybody can get behind them. There have been times when lawmakers have had a big problem happen in your state and you're sitting here worried about making a new cookie rather than dealing with the big issues. So it can be a risky proposition for politicians.

And, you know, they don't always pass, as we've seen with Jo, she's still working on that. And if you look around, there's lots of examples of one that didn't make it all the way. Pennsylvania tried to make the slinky estate toy, and various waltzes have failed in other states. But the shaka would be a welcome addition to the official symbols of Hawaii. And it seems like it's a well on its way to getting there.

Jason Palmer
Thanks very much for joining us, Marguerite. Thanks, Jason. It's been a pleasure to be here.

That's all for this episode of the intelligence. We'll see you back here tomorrow.

When it comes to your finances, you think you've done it all. You've saved, you've researched, and you've invested all that you can. Now it's time to take those investments to the next level by using the brand behind every great investor. Yahoo Finance. As America's number one finance destination, Yahoo Finance has everything you need, whether you're a seasoned trader or just dipping your toes into the market.

Join the millions of investors who trust Yahoo Finance to guide them on their financial journey. For comprehensive financial news and analysis, visit yahoofinance.com. the number one financial destination yahoofinance.com.