This U.S. company is helping arm Ukraine against Russia - with AI drones

This episode explores a U.S. tech company's role in supplying AI-enhanced drones to Ukraine amidst its conflict with Russia.

1. Anduril Industries is providing AI drones to Ukraine, enhancing their defense capabilities against Russian forces.
2. These drones can operate semi-autonomously, making them less susceptible to jamming and countermeasures.
3. The use of AI in warfare raises significant ethical concerns, particularly regarding accountability for autonomous actions.
4. Ukraine's adoption of AI technology reflects a broader trend of high-tech warfare, where traditional and new tech companies vie for influence.
5. The episode highlights the personal and corporate history of Palmer Luckey, emphasizing his controversial yet impactful role in the defense sector.

1: Introduction

Overview of Ukraine's need for advanced weaponry against Russian aggression, and the role of AI drones. Juana Summers: "Ukraine needs more weapons to defend itself from Russia."

2: The Technology Behind AI Drones

Discussion on the specifics of AI drones developed by Anduril and their capabilities. Palmer Luckey: "It's a drone that... transforms itself into a small airplane."

3: Ethical and Operational Challenges

Analyzes the ethical dilemmas and operational challenges of using AI in combat. Palmer Luckey: "The autonomy onboard is really what sets it apart."

4: Impact on Modern Warfare

Explores how AI technology is changing the landscape of modern warfare and defense strategies. Expert Opinion: "AI weapons are changing the way the US and its allies fight wars."

1. Stay Informed: Understand the implications of AI in defense to make informed opinions or decisions.
2. Engage in Ethical Discussions: Participate in forums or debates to explore the ethical dimensions of autonomous weapons.
3. Support Responsible Tech Use: Advocate for policies that promote the ethical use of technology in warfare.
4. Educate Others: Share knowledge about the impact of AI on warfare with your community.
5. Monitor Developments: Keep up with the latest advancements in military technology to better understand their potential impacts.

Palmer Luckey launched his first tech company as a teenager. That was Oculus, the virtual reality headset for gaming. Soon after, he sold it to Facebook for $2 billion.

Now 31, Luckey has a new company called Anduril that's making Artificial Intelligence weapons. The Pentagon is buying them – keeping some for itself and sending others to Ukraine.

The weapons could be instrumental in helping Ukraine stand up to Russia.

Ukraine needs more weapons – and better weapons – to fight against Russia. Could AI weapons made by a billionaire tech entrepreneur's company hold the answer?

People

Palmer Luckey, Volodymyr Zelenskyy

Companies

Anduril Industries

Content Warnings:

None

Juana Summers
This week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is making the rounds at the 75th annual NATO summit in Washington. He is telling everyone he can that Ukraine needs more weapons to defend itself from Russia. How much longer can Putin last? The answer to this question is right here in Washington. Your leadership, your actions, your choice.

Unknown
The choice to act now. The west has been sending weapons to Ukraine since the start of the war, with mixed results. Some weapons were outdated and ineffective. Others proved extremely potent, at least until the Russians developed countermeasures like drones.

Juana Summers
Initially, Ukraine largely came up with its own solution, buying cheap chinese drones available on the Internet. They proved successful until Russia responded with electronic warfare, which allows them to jam signals and make these drones useless. These kinds of moves and counter moves always happen in wars, which become testing grounds for all sorts of technology. This has been especially true in Ukraine, where both sides have advanced weapons. Many us weapons companies have gone to Ukraine in hopes of showing what their systems can do as they focus on new technology like artificial intelligence.

Palmer Luckey
It's a drone that fires out of a tube into the air and then unfolds itself, extends its wings, extends its tail, unfolds the propeller, and kind of transforms itself into a small airplane. We have versions of it that can carry up to a 30 pound warhead. So you've got a lot of punch in this thing. That's Palmer Luckey, the founder of a us defense tech company called Anduril. The company says it sells autonomous weapons to around ten countries worldwide, and it's been helping arm Ukraine since the early days of the war.

Juana Summers
Consider Ukraine needs more weapons and better weapons to stand up to Russia. Could AI weapons made by a billionaire tech entrepreneur's company? Hold the answer from NPR. I'm Juana Summers. This message comes from NPR.

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Juana Summers
It's consider this from NPR. When he was still a teenager, Palmer Luckey launched his first tech company. That was Oculus, the virtual reality headset for gaming. Soon after, he sold it to Facebook for $2 billion. Now 31, Lucky has a new company called Anduril that's making artificial intelligence weapons.

The Pentagon is buying them, keeping some for itself and sending others to Ukraine. NPR's Greg Myri has the story from Costa Mesa, California. It's easy to find Palmer Lucky. He's the guy with the mullet, wearing shorts, flip flops, and a bright hawaiian shirt as he shows me models of Andral's artificial intelligence weapons at its gleaming headquarters just south of Los Angeles. He's in standard business attire.

Palmer Luckey
This is one of my dungeons and dragons hawaiian shirts. So you know you've got an elder dragon, you've got a fighter, a couple wizards. So I wear a lot of hawaiian shirts because. Because I like them and I can get away with it. More to the point, he also describes an Altius drone we're looking at, which Andro provides to both the Pentagon and Ukraine.

It's a drone that fires out of a tube into the air and then unfolds itself, extends its wings, extends its tail, unfolds the propeller, and kind of transforms itself into a small airplane. We have versions of it that can carry up to a 30 pound warhead. So you've got a lot of punch in this thing. Androl is among a growing number of tech companies making AI weapons and boldly proclaiming they'll change the way the US and its allies fight wars. They're shaking up an industry long dominated by giants such as Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, which build large traditional weapons from fighter jets to tanks.

Unknown
Andral, named after a sword in Lord of the Rings, has taken a very different approach in its seven year history. I had this belief that the major defense companies in the US didn't have the right talent or the right incentive structure to invest in things like artificial intelligence, autonomy, robotics. And the companies that did have expertise in those things, like Google, like Facebook, like Apple, were refusing to work with the us national security community. Andrew's pitch is AI weapons built in less time and at a lower cost than traditional contractors. The man spreading the message is an iconoclastic figure in the largely liberal tech community for his work with the military and his outspoken politics, including longstanding support for Donald Trump.

But Palmer Lucky is hard to ignore. Just days after Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Lucky made his way to Kyiv for talks with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Anduril has had hardware in Ukraine since the second week of the war, so we immediately got involved. The war is a laboratory for high tech. Most notable is the Elon Musk Starlink satellite network, which provides critical communications for Ukraine's military.

However, in this emerging industry of AI weapons, skeptics say a lot of bugs still need to be worked out. In several off the record conversations, people working closely with Ukraine's military say many new weapons from a range of companies still have flaws, that they're vulnerable to russian countermeasures and simply haven't performed as advertised. So far, these weapons have had a limited impact and have not changed the war's trajectory. Here's how Andral's CEO Brian Schimpf responds. Ukraine is a very challenging environment to learn in.

Brian Schimpf
And, you know, I've heard various estimates from, you know, the Ukrainians themselves that any given drone that they find to work typically has a lifespan of about four weeks. Question is, can you respond and adapt? Jacqueline Snyder studies military technology at the Hoover institution. Technologies that worked really well even a few months ago are now constantly having to change. And this, the big difference I do see is that software changes the rate.

Unknown
Of change, just like the software on your phone or computer. Weapon systems in Ukraine need to be updated frequently. PW singer is an author who writes about Warren Tech. There's this mythology of innovation as if it happens in one place. The reality is there's a lot of.

PW Singer
Cool, exciting stuff happening in the big defense primes. There's a lot of cool, exciting stuff happening in the big tech Silicon Valley companies. There's a lot of cool, exciting stuff happening in these small startups. Two years ago, Ukrainians turned to small, cheap civilian drones made in China and available on the Internet. The Ukrainians then attached grenades, then dropped them down the open turrets of unsuspecting russian tanks.

Unknown
The Russians responded with electronic jamming, blocking the signal between the drone and the ukrainian soldier operating it. This renders the drone useless. This is where Andral believes it can make a difference. Its AI drones can be programmed before takeoff to search on their own for a russian tank. Once launched, these drones dont need guidance from a ukrainian soldier, making them very hard to stop again.

Palmer Luckey
Palmer Luckey the autonomy on board is really what sets it apart. It's not a remote controlled plane. There's a lattice brain on it that is able to look for the target, identify targets, and fly into those targets, even if they're jamming you. Of course, this raises questions about who's responsible if something goes wrong, like hitting civilians. In a recent report to the United Nations, Human Rights Watch called for, quote, the urgent negotiation and adoption of a legally binding instrument to prohibit and regulate autonomy.

Unknown
Autonomous weapons systems. But Andrew's Brian Schimpf looks at AI weapons this way. This is not about taking humans out of the loop. I don't think that's the right ethical framework. This is really about how do we make human decision makers more effective and more accountable to their decisions.

Drones aren't just in the skies anymore. They're also in the seas. Ukraine makes its own sea. Drones think jet skis packed with explosives. They've inflicted serious damage on the russian navy in the Black Sea.

Homer lucky shows me Andrel's version, an underwater drone called Dive LD in an old, mostly vacant industrial building that's part of Andral's otherwise shiny new campus. We put on virtual reality headsets, an updated model of the one Lucky created for an augmented look at the sub. It's an autonomous underwater vehicle that is able to go very, very long distances, dive to a depth about 6000 meters, which is deep enough to go to the bottom of all, almost any ocean anywhere in the world. Last month, Andrew won a US Navy contract to Bill 200 annually. Lucky has pursued his interests in tech, business and politics since his teen years.

Way back in 2011, he wrote to Donald Trump and urged him to run for president. And I said, hey, consider me one of the people who thinks it would be good to have a business person in office, somebody who's familiar with signing both sides of a check. He still supports Trump today in general. Yeah, I think he'd make a good commander in chief. Yet from a business perspective, Palmer Luckey says he's not that concerned about who wins in November.

Palmer Luckey
We made a lot of money under Trump. We made even more money under Biden. I think we're going to continue expanding over whoever is in office next, more. AI weapons are coming, he says, no matter who's in the White House. Greg Myrie, NPR News, Costa Mesa, California.

Juana Summers
This episode was produced by Katherine Fink and Janaki Mehta. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Andrew Sussman. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. And one more thing before we go. You can now enjoy the consider this newsletter.

We still help you break down a major story of the day, but you'll also get to know our producers and hosts and some moments of joy from the ALL ThINGS considered team. You can sign up@npr.org Considerthisnew newsletter It's COnsider this from NPR. I'm Juana Summers. Imagine a house where every room follows a different architect's plan. Doorways don't connect.

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Staircases lead nowhere. Lost Patients is a new podcast examining our complicated system for treating psychosis, one that loses patients to an endless loop between the streets, jail and hospitals. We'll ask how it got so bad and how it can get better. Listen to lost patients from Kow and the Seattle Times, part of the NPR network. Here at Shortwave space camp, we escape our everyday lives to explore the mysteries and quirks of the universe.

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