As antisemitism grows, it is easier to condemn than define

This episode explores the complexities of defining antisemitism amidst rising incidents and its intersection with freedom of speech and political rhetoric.

1. Antisemitism in the US has surged, marked by violent incidents and divisive political rhetoric.
2. The debate over what constitutes antisemitism is complex, influenced by historical context and current geopolitical tensions.
3. Accusations of antisemitism are sometimes used to challenge or silence critiques of Israel, raising issues about freedom of speech.
4. Defining antisemitism requires careful consideration of intent, context, and impact, making it a challenging task.
5. The episode emphasizes the importance of nuanced discussions in addressing and understanding antisemitism.

1: Introduction

Ari Shapiro introduces the topic by recounting recent incidents of antisemitism and the political responses to it. Ari Shapiro: "Lawmakers in Congress have talked about antisemitism more this year than I've seen in my entire life."

2: Campus Protests

Discussion on the overlap of antisemitism accusations with protests supporting Palestinian rights. Franklin Foer: "When people use the word Zionist, it's oftentimes a synonym for Jew."

3: Political Rhetoric

Examines the role of political figures and their impact on the discourse around antisemitism. Julia Yaffe: "The focus on college protests is ridiculous and shifts the spotlight away from Gaza."

4: Personal Insights

Personal stories and experiences that shape the guests' understanding of antisemitism. Julia Yaffe: "It's very hard to explain to people who feel discriminated against every single day that we're talking about these kind of phantom pains."

1. Educate oneself on the historical and contemporary facets of antisemitism to engage in more informed discussions.
2. Support platforms that provide nuanced discussions on sensitive topics like antisemitism.
3. Encourage open dialogue in educational institutions to better understand the line between criticism and prejudice.
4. Be vigilant of political rhetoric that may inadvertently foster discrimination.
5. Foster community discussions that include diverse perspectives to enhance mutual understanding.

For American Jews who grew up thinking antisemitism was a thing of the past, the last several years have been startling. White supremacists marched in Charlottesville. A gunman massacred worshippers at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Then came the Hamas attacks of October 7th and Israel's war in Gaza.

The Anti-Defamation League says since then, antisemitic incidents in the US are up 361% over the same period a year ago. Both Congress and the White House have tried to address antisemitism in recent weeks, yet there's still a debate about what it is.

Two journalists, who have been thinking and writing about antisemitism in the U.S. weigh in.

People

Ari Shapiro, Franklin Foer, Julia Yaffe

Companies

NPR

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Franklin Foer, Julia Yaffe

Content Warnings:

None

Ari Shapiro
For american Jews who grew up thinking anti Semitism was a thing of the past, the last several years have been startling. In 2017, white supremacists marched in Charlottesville, Virginia, chanting, Jews will not replace us. Jews will not replace us. That year, jewish cemeteries were vandalized. There was a wave of bomb threats against jewish community centers.

Jeremy Burton
Everybody's no more than one or two degrees of separation from someone who's kids ended up on a sidewalk in front of a JCC over the last couple of weeks. That's Jeremy Burton, head of Boston's jewish community Relations council, speaking to NPR at the time. Frankly, it's a bit of a shock, and maybe we are a bit naive, but we sort of maybe assumed that it was something we had mostly left behind. The Anti Defamation League said instances of anti semitism in the US shot up 57% in 2017, and things haven't gotten any better. In 2018, a man walked into a Pittsburgh synagogue during Shabbat services and killed eleven people.

Ari Shapiro
Alongside the violence, political rhetoric has seemed to change, too, as President Donald Trump equivocated about the Charlottesville marchers. And you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. And in 2019, democratic representative Ilhan Omar of Minnesota tweeted, it's all about the Benjamin's baby, suggesting the the American Israel public affairs Committee had bought political support for Israel. She apologized after other lawmakers criticized her. Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar apologized today for perpetuating one of the oldest hateful stereotypes in the book, the anti semitic claim that Jews control politics with money.

All of those events were part of the conversation american Jews were having for the last several years before the Hamas attacks of October 7 and Israel's subsequent war in Gaza. And that context helps explain why there is so much debate now about demonstrations in support of Palestinians, debate about what is a legitimate demand for human rights and what crosses over into anti semitism. Consider the question of how to define antisemitism and what to do about it is unfolding on campuses and in Congress. We'll talk with two jewish journalists who have tried to find some clarity in this fog.

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Ari Shapiro
It's consider this from NPR. Political leaders from both parties say they want to fight antisemitism in the US, and that may be where the agreement ends. Defining antisemitism can be much harder than condemning it. Lawmakers in Congress have talked about antisemitism more this year than ive seen in my entire life. President Biden recently gave a major speech on the topic.

Theres an old line that I grew up with. Get two jews in a room and youll hear three opinions. Well, for this conversation, we've got three jews, myself included. Our guests are both journalists who've been thinking and writing a lot about the forms that antisemitism takes in the US these days and why these lines can be so blurry. Franklin Foer is a staff writer at the Atlantic, and Julia Yaffe is a founding partner and Washington correspondent at Puck.

Welcome. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having us, Ari. Let's head to the college campuses where there have been these protests all over the country. And each of you has written about incidents of antisemitism around these protests in support of palestinian rights.

At the same time, we have heard protesters say accusations of anti Semitism are too often being used to silence legitimate speech. Can both things be true? Yeah, in fact, both things can be true. I think that the question that gets invoked at the core of this is, is anti Zionism the same thing as anti Semitism? Oh, yeah, I intend to get to that.

Okay, go ahead. So do you want me to. I could steer clear. Take it away, Frank. Let's go.

There. Is believing in the existence of a jewish state, which I understand you both do. Yes. Is opposing that is saying, I don't believe Israel should exist inherently anti semitic. I would say it's not.

Julia Yaffe
Yes. I'd say it's not inherent. We have a disagreement of it's not inherently anti semitic. We love disagreement because I know opinions. There's a whole range of people who I know who are anti zionist, who believe in a binational state, and it's not something I agree with.

Franklin Foer
And I think it's a dangerous idea. But I don't think that they are per se anti Semites, because that would, you know, just thinking through their motivations of the people who make these arguments. I don't think that they hate Jews. But, Julie, I can see you want to jump in. Yes, I think you can absolutely be anti zionist without being anti semitic.

Julia Yaffe
One of the main ways that you do that is by being jewish.

I think the problem with being anti zionist and being not jewish is not even. And I think these people have. A lot of these people have noble intentions. They see what's happening in Gaza and they're rightly incensed and horrified by it all. But then you get into questions of double standards.

You know, if the Palestinians have a right to national self determination, do the Jews not have that? And if so, why not? Can I? Frankly, no, no, I agree with her on all of that, actually. But I would say just add one thing.

Franklin Foer
I think that when people use the word Zionist, it's oftentimes a synonym for jew, and it becomes a way for expressing thoughts about jewish villainy, about jewish control, about a jewish cabal. That would be socially unacceptable if you use the word jew. Some of the pro palestinian activists, including some jewish activists, say that the focus on anti semitism at the protests is a distraction, that this deflects from a more serious issue of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Do you think that's a fair criticism? I think it is, absolutely.

Julia Yaffe
I mean, I think the focus. I would put it differently. I would say that the focus on the college protests is ridiculous. And. And I think for a long time, it did shift the spotlight away from Gaza.

I think what is very hard for the younger generation of Americans to understand is, you know, why is anti semitism even an issue? You guys look white. Nobody pulls you over for one broken taillight and then shoots you for no reason. And it's very hard to explain to people that what has happened in America over the last, I would say, 50 years, two, three generations, is the exception that proves the rule of thousands of years of jewish history, which jews like my family, who came from the Soviet Union, where we were second class citizens, where we were excluded from universities, from jobs, from overseas travel, that trauma is so deep because this has happened, you know, as we said in Passover, in every generation, somebody rises up to kill us. That's what we say in the seder.

I think that's very hard to explain to people who feel discriminated against every single day that we're talking about these kind of phantom pains and the idea that it could turn on a dime and the genocide could come again tomorrow versus an active daily kind of trauma of the racism that other groups in America feel. Frank, what do you think about the argument that the real trauma from past events and fear about what future events may bring should take a backseat to the ongoing killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians? I would say it's not even just, I mean, I think that minimizes what Jews are experiencing on campuses and in the world, just to say that it's an expression of past trauma, which obviously it's filtered through past trauma, as Julia describes. But if you on college campuses and in neighborhoods, and there are these very real examples of antisemitism, and just because there's one crisis that's happening in Gaza does not mean that there are not other crises that are happening in the world. And these protests are happening in the context of our democratic crisis, where we can't express disagreements in a mild sort of way, where everything escalates to incredible levels of vitriol and have, has a hint of violence to it.

Yeah, I also think. Sorry. I also think one of the issues with our political discourse now, but I think is just a problem of human brains in general, is I think it's very hard for people to hold two things in their heads at once as being true simultaneously. You can absolutely protest what is happening in Gaza right now. You can absolutely be appalled and horrified and wanted to stop yesterday.

That doesn't mean that anti semitism is not important, not a canary in the coal mine for our democracy, which it kind of has also been traditionally. You can be both. The three of us are all roughly the same generation. We're all in our forties. Are you surprised to see the level of antagonism that american Jews report experiencing right now?

Ari Shapiro
Frank, the title of your cover story in the Atlantic was the golden age of american Jews is ending. Does this feel like a, a surprising, unexpected shift? It does. After October 7. I've seen things in my own neighborhood and in my own community that I never thought I would see that my rabbi was walking down Connecticut Avenue just, you know, a couple hundred feet from my house, and somebody rolled down the window and started shouting anti semitic epithets at her and that at the base of Washington, DC.

Franklin Foer
Yeah. And my daughter's school, there was a swastika that appeared in the middle of this crisis and it suddenly started to feel local and intimate in a way that certainly defied everything I'd experienced throughout most of my life. Julia, are you surprised? No. I suspected you might say that, having grown up in the Soviet Union.

Julia Yaffe
You know, I was seven when I came over and I had already experienced plenty of anti semitism as a child. I had a first grade teacher in the Soviet Union who wouldn't let me eat with the rest of the class. The soviet jewish community looks at american Jews and sees them as these kind of pollyanna types. They've lost that jewish vigilance. They've lost that jewish pessimism that they're just so optimistic.

Franklin Foer
Guilty as charged. Yeah. I remember the surprise among american Jews and being surprised by their surprise and kind of feeling like we told you so. It never goes away. Julia Yaffe of Puck and Franklin, four of the Atlantic.

Ari Shapiro
It is so good to talk to you both. Thank you. Thanks, Ari. Thank you, Ari.

This episode was produced by Connor Donovan and edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. And one more thing before we go. You can now enjoy the consider this newsletter. We still help you break down a major story of the day, but youll also get to know our producers and hosts and some moments of joy from the ALL things considered team.

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