I Went to Couples Therapy (ft. Orna Guralnik) [VIDEO]

This episode delves into the intricacies of couples therapy, featuring insights from psychologist and psychoanalyst Orna Guralnik.

1. Stigma of Couples Therapy: Couples therapy often carries a stigma that suggests a relationship is failing, which Orna challenges by highlighting its benefits in understanding and resolving deeper issues.
2. Communication and Understanding: The episode stresses effective communication and understanding each other’s emotional needs as pivotal for relationship health.
3. Early Intervention: Engaging in therapy before problems become deeply entrenched can save a relationship from potential breakdown.
4. Individual Therapy vs. Couples Therapy: Orna discusses when it's more appropriate to seek individual therapy over couples therapy, especially concerning personal issues affecting the relationship.
5. Therapy as a Tool for Growth: Rather than seeing therapy as a sign of weakness, it should be viewed as a tool for personal and relational growth.

1: Introduction

Alex Cooper introduces Orna Guralnik and sets the stage for a discussion on couples therapy. Orna Guralnik: "It's incredible how many people carry misconceptions about couples therapy."

2: Understanding Therapy

Orna explains the fundamental concepts of therapy and its misconceptions. Orna Guralnik: "Therapy is not about changing someone, but understanding them."

3: Benefits of Early Intervention

The benefits of seeking therapy early in relationship troubles are discussed. Orna Guralnik: "Early intervention can prevent patterns from solidifying."

4: Therapy Techniques

Orna shares techniques used in therapy to improve relationships. Orna Guralnik: "It’s about finding new ways to communicate and understand each other."

5: Q&A with Listeners

Alex and Orna answer listener questions about relationships and therapy. Orna Guralnik: "Each relationship is unique, and therapy must be tailored accordingly."

• Open Communication: Practice expressing feelings without fear of judgment.
• Regular Check-ins: Schedule regular check-ins with your partner to discuss relationship health.
• Educate Yourself: Learn about different therapy approaches and find what resonates with your relationship.
• Manage Expectations: Understand that therapy is a tool, not a miracle cure.
• Seek Professional Help Early: Don't wait until problems become unmanageable.

Join Alex in the studio for an insightful interview with esteemed couples therapist, Dr. Orna Guralnik. Orna explains what to expect in couples therapy, when it’s the right time for you and your partner to go, and why there should be no shame in working on your relationship. They discuss how to have healthy disagreements, what a “lived in” relationship looks like, and how there’s usually more to an argument than meets the eye. Alex even opens up and reveals things about herself and her relationship that she’s never spoken about publicly before including her decision to go to couples therapy. Then, Orna gives some of her best tips for how to communicate your wants and needs in the bedroom and what role sex plays in a healthy relationship. Finally, they talk about the psychology behind why people are drawn to toxic relationships and ultimately stay in situations that don’t benefit them. Enjoy!

People

Orna Guralnik, Alex Cooper

Companies

None

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Orna Guralnik

Content Warnings:

None

Alex Cooper
What is up, daddy? Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with call her daddy, doctor Orna Guralnik. Welcome back to call her daddy. I am in shock that it's been, I think it's three plus years, right?

Orna Guralnik
Unbelievable. I sort of didn't feel like it was three years. It feels like a year and a half ago, right? Yeah. I guess it's also because, like, we do stay connected and we do communicate through email, which makes me so happy.

Alex Cooper
But we haven't literally seen each other in three plus years, which is bananas to me, to anyone who is new here. Daddy Gang, Orna is a psychologist and psychoanalyst, and she is the star on the docu series couples therapy, where you counsel real patients about their lives in their couple dynamic. And a new season is coming out. Yes. And Matt is screwed because when a new season of couples therapy comes out, I go, Mia, I sit in my room and I binge the entire thing in one sitting.

So thank you. Okay. You have to explain to me how you process all of that information, like, in one binge. I think it's because I get so invested in these people's lives, and I want to know, like, are they gonna stay together? Are they gonna progress?

Like, what is the trauma that they're about to uncover? I think it feels like the most real show I've ever watched. Like, you're so incredible at extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable, but also, you fall in love with these people, and I love that we get to see their home life, and we get to see them as real humans. And it's not just this fake facade of a fun show to watch people talk about trauma. So I'll be binging.

Orna Guralnik
I'm very, very curious to talk to you after you watch the show.

Alex Cooper
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You can save 20% with the promo code podcast@azoproducts.com. that's a z O products.com. on this show, I have been so open about my therapy journey. I've been open about having a psychologist as a mother. And just like what that has allowed me to embrace in my life, maybe where people who were raised in a home that weren't as open about therapy, it has more of a negative connotation and stigma.

But couples therapy, I feel like everyone now is like, oh, my gosh, get into therapy. It's the best thing. But couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples. Why do you think there's such a big stigma around it? Well, I think, first of all, there's this.

Orna Guralnik
I don't remember if we talked about it last time, but there's this, like, really intense firewall around couples in general, where people do not like to share the fact that they're having struggles and trouble in their couple's relationship with other people, there's some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of.

Some kind of facade of what a couple is like, especially when people get married.

So in that sense, it's not only the couple's therapy. It's just the idea that couples are having trouble is very scary for people. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to expose it. It's almost like they're calling in bad spirits if they talk about it.

Alex Cooper
It's a good point. And I also think there's a fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment, then when the next day you're fine and you're at the park and you're smiling, you almost feel this shame of, like, oh, I'm embarrassed. And I feel like I can't recover from what I shared. I definitely had moments in the very beginning of my relationship with Matt where I would share with a friend if we had a fight. And then I felt a little awkward because I'm like, well, we're still together, but, like, we worked through it, and.

And then the friend is. Is almost like wanting to check in on you, and you kind of don't want to keep bringing it up. So it's like there's this, like, social element of, you don't need to. They don't see everything, right. And when you share the bad, they also.

Orna Guralnik
You don't want to leave that bad depression. Right. And also you. You're responsible. You have another person's trust in your hand.

So talking about it, it's a little bit like, does your partner have the consent? Have they given the consent? It's complicated. How does someone know if they should start couples therapy with their partner? Funny, people ask me that.

I'm not of the school that believes that everyone should be in couples therapy, and it's always good. I don't think so. Um, I think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea. If you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern that feels destructive and not, like, not a growth pattern that keeps repeating, and you and your partner are trying different ways to change it, and nothing's changing, you feel like you're kind of stuck, and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive or making things worse. That's a good time to bring in a third person and try to get some perspective on it.

Alex Cooper
Do you feel like if someone comes to you and is like, I'm terrified he's gonna cheat, and you're like, well, has he given you any reason that he's gonna cheat? And she's like, no, but my past and whatever, then it's like, would you ever be like, so you probably need to go to individual therapy, right? Okay. Yes. That's not a good idea to go to couples therapy in that moment right.

Before anything bad happens, right? I mean, but people sometimes do that. It's like they think of it as, like, premarital counseling. Like, tell me how to, like, avoid all the problems that life is going to present me with. And it's like, there's no way life's gonna present you with problems and patterns are gonna emerge, and you can't, like, protect yourself against it.

Orna Guralnik
It's life. It's like, go in and live it. And when you need to get someone to help you, and then on the other end of things, if people wait too long, sometimes it's too late. Really. I mean, it's a very sad thing.

But, you know, I see sometimes couple that come in after years and years of slogging it and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating issues, and by the time they come in, there's just, like, not enough goodwill left in them, not enough love or not enough hope. And as much as they try, it's really hard to resurrect the relationship. So that's interesting. So that's kind of the window for me. Okay.

Alex Cooper
What if someone's sitting here listening orna, and is like, I want to go to couples therapy so badly, but my partner refuses and has no interest. Common. How do you deal with that? There's one thing, which is to get over the hump of starting therapy, which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing that. And getting over that particular hump of just the beginning is not.

Orna Guralnik
I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, I can tell people, look, just like, ask your partner, give it a try, or barter, you know, say something like, if you come with me to couples therapy, I'll offer this for you. I'll go your way, and some other way. You know, we can go, like, take that trip I've always refused to do, or, I don't know. Yeah.

So getting people through the door is not that hard. But then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place. It's a place where both of them can get something out of it because I think what often people are afraid of is that they're going to be dragged into a therapist's office and they're going to be ganged up on and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them to change in a way that they don't feel is right for them or it's not going to be for them. And, you know, the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple, not one person. And I think once two people feel like they're really being heard and that they both have something to gain from it, they're gonna want to stay.

Alex Cooper
Yeah. I think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant. Like, I think so many people are like, I'm literally going to get attacked. And I guess there, if you could, like, explain to people maybe that are listening, like, what can they expect in couples therapy? Because you're right.

I think people are terrified of it. I think that the person that sets it up, the other person is like, oh, there, you guys have a plan and I'm not in on it. And you guys are going to try to, like, push me into a corner. Like, how would you explain it to someone who has never done it, but is a little trepidatious about going into it, but is like, orna, what? What am I going to walk into?

Orna Guralnik
That's a really good question. I think what I would say to people is, like, think about therapy, about couples therapy as a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship and to have in the therapist an ally of the relationship, someone who can help you and your partner get to something that you actually want together? Meaning it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered. I mean, there are moments when people are going to face difficult things about themselves and be asked to grow and expand and maybe give more than they're used to. But the ultimate idea is that you're.

You're there to gain. You're there to gain something that matters to you. And if that's not happening in therapy, you're not in the right place. I think that's incredible to hear, though, because I think anyone that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize because you're picturing someone staring at you, judging you. Right.

Alex Cooper
And that is intimidating, because vulnerability is intimidating in the first place. And to have someone that's like a specialist, I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapist actually acts towards you could be like, oh, this bitch is gonna fucking judge me. And it's gonna tell me I have all this trauma, and it's gonna be painful. Yes. And why are we opening all this up?

I'm fine right now. Yeah. And it's like, well, you're fine until the next fight starts. And then you go back to your patterns because of whatever happened in your childhood, when you were in your home, the way your parents treated you. It's all connected.

Orna Guralnik
Like, why people don't go, for example, to have a mammogram or a colonoscopy, that they're both afraid that it's gonna be painful fear, and they're afraid of what they're gonna find out. And that is not what happens in therapy. So. True. It should feel, I mean, it's not like Luna park.

It's not like fun fun, but it should feel like an enriching, good experience of being heard, understanding someone else, kind of in a richer, deeper way. There's clarity. Yeah. And truth. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
So I'm curious. I feel like a huge part of the show is people come to you and are trying to learn how to manage conflict. I mean, it's like, that's every relationship. How do we fight? How do we communicate?

How are we gonna handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with their partner? There's people. I don't know if to call it a mistake, but I think where conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong is, first of all, just on the simple level of.

Orna Guralnik
Level of agitation. Like, again, like I was talking earlier about, like, a window. Like a good window. There's a good window in which decent conversations can happen, and that's when you're not either too upset or too activated or too wounded that you can't actually process. And then the conversation is not a real conversation.

It's just like either a crying, screaming, whatever match, and on the other end, people can feel so shut down or hopeless that they're not really engaging. They're withdrawing from the conversation. So maybe the most basic thing for people, for a good conversation, for good conflict, would be to make sure you're in the right zone, you're not too shut down, and you're not too over whatever agitated the other big, kind of still tactical issue is. And this is, it might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep. Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something, and when are you actually trying to understand them?

Alex Cooper
Shots fired. Yeah. Right. It's huge. It seems like it should be simple.

Orna Guralnik
Right, right. But it's huge. And I see it in my couples. I actually just had a session with a couple this morning where they kind of realized that difference and how it will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing. Convincing.

Alex Cooper
Right. And it changes everything. It does. Because it's like when you're in those moments, you almost have blinders on where you're like, I will get him to understand my point. Hell or high water.

Yeah. And he's on the other side being like, I need her to understand what I'm saying. And so you're just, like, hitting a wall and it's bouncing back at you and you feel crazy, and you're like, no, how. Don't you hear me? They're like.

And then it's like, if you can get to a better. Yes. You're. Literally nothing is penetrating. It's like.

Orna Guralnik
And people get increasingly frustrated. Both sides get increasing because it's not a conversation. It's not. It's funny. It reminds me of in the beginning stages of my relationship with Matt.

Alex Cooper
It's so funny. I think I had, like, met him right around the time that we did our best. I can't wait to hear, like, the update on what happens. So it's so funny because we have. We're both in personal therapy, and I don't think I've ever even said this on the show.

We went to couples therapy, and it was in the beginning of our relationship. I reached out to you. Do you remember this? Yeah. I reached out to you and I asked you, do you have a good couple therapist?

I was like, wink, wink. Want to do it? You're like, Alex, that's a complete complex. Who did I send you to, by the way? You sent me to.

Oh, my God. I'm gonna have to find her name. She was incredible. Awesome. But she was amazing.

And it was in the beginning stage. Daddy gang, I never told you this. Matt and I went to couples therapy, and I remember in the beginning of talking about it with friends, like, I was like, I would. I don't want to talk about this on my show. Like, people will think Matt and I have problems.

Of course we had problems. We were. It's called life. Right. It's a problem.

Exactly. Always. But we. We had such incredible conversations. And not that we have to get too much into it.

But what I remember from the main problem Matt and I were having was Matt was ready to settle down with me. And I wanted to, I really did, but I was feeling like, so my independence was being threatened. So if Matt was ever like, hey, if you're going out with your girlfriends, like, just give me a text that you got home. And in my mind, I'm like, you're being controlling. And so I was pulling away because I thought that his actual genuine care of, like, wanting to build a life together and, like, be respectful and communicate from previous relationships, I felt like that was controlling and possessive.

Yes. And so we worked on it a lot in couples therapy, where it's like, so, Alex, if you're busy with work and you haven't talked to Matt all day, could you just send him a text? Because it's all coming from love. He just wants to make sure, should I go to a dinner with a friend, or am I waiting for you to cook you a meal? And I'm like, oh, well, when you put it that way, I sound like an asshole.

But it was, it was difficult for me to conceptualize a life where I brought someone else in and had to think of them, because I think as a woman, like, my mom raised me as a very independent woman. I thought that partnering with a man meant I had to give up my independence. What I've realized is independence in that relationship now just looks like communicating and being respectful of the other person and Matt, now I can go do whatever I want. And Matt trusts me. But we needed to build that first core trust in order to have independence in the relationship.

Orna Guralnik
Yeah, and to kind of borrow what you're describing to what I was saying, it's like you have to, if you're just going to keep trying to explain, let's say to Matt why it's bothersome to you, his ask. And you don't ever pause and say, wait, but how is he thinking about this? Forget about how I'm perceiving it. How is he perceiving it? What is the meaning of this text or phone call to him?

If you don't ever do that, then, I mean, you're never going to resolve what could be a really simple issue if you just listen. It's so true. And that's where I will say, when I sat in couples therapy with him all those weeks, we would leave and we would look at each other and be like, oh, my God, I'm sorry. I can't believe that. I remember one session I was so adamant about, like, why does he need to, like, know where I am at all times?

Alex Cooper
And he's like, I don't, like, think I need you to hear what I'm saying. I'm genuinely trying to be respectful of our relationship, to know, like, should I expect to see you tonight? Like, that's all. And I eventually recognize also he was in a position where he was like, I know you're the one. I also want to make sure, like, I'm not investing all my time in someone that I think for a while I was.

He was even questioning if I liked him at one point because I would pull away so hard when really it was just, I was terrified. I'd never met someone incredible like that, that I was like, oh, my God, I have to make sure I'm still independent because what if, what if it doesn't work out? And so we were both just, like, yearning to connect, which I bet is what you see all the time, where it's, like, different versions of it. But I think we did it for, like, two months, and then we ended up being like, okay, we had this one big problem and we solved it, and then we were like, okay, I think we're good. And now we're married.

Orna Guralnik
Wow. It's crazy. Wow. But it was a big, I know I'm probably to let people listening. I know it probably sounds like, oh, he just wanted you to text it.

Alex Cooper
It was so much bigger than that. And I'm not giving it justice, but it was like this very big. What is the thing? Like, the pursuer and the withdrawler? Yeah, it was that.

Yeah, he was like, Alex. And I was like, get away. But I was like, but I love you. And then he'd be like, but why are you treating me like shit? I was like, I don't know.

It went on for a little bit there. And I'm so grateful that we had people in our life, like, I could email you and be like, we need someone. And it solved a lot of our problems. And I just want people to get more comfortable thinking about couples therapy in a way that you're right. If there's a friction in your relationship, it is pretty simple to solve when you have the right tools in front of you and someone sitting there just to facilitate it.

Orna Guralnik
What's also interesting about, like, the way therapy works is that you don't have to solve every problem. You solve one problem. Like, what you're describing here, and I'm sure it has, like, many reverberations. You don't have to sit in therapy then to solve every other problem that comes up, you learn a certain kind of method that then generalizes. You're right.

Alex Cooper
Like, I remember one of the sessions we had, Matt and I were like, well, we were. You know, we were arguing about this. Cause we couldn't figure out. And I remember she stopped us, and she was like, were you drunk? And we were like, oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, we were. And she was like, okay, I'm gonna have you do this for the next two weeks. Anytime that you are both drinking, the minute a conversation, you guys start to, like, friction a little bit. We're done. Save this for the morning.

That is now a rule that Matt and I have continued for the past three and a half years. Whenever we're drinking, if there's ever, like, a. Wait, why did you say that? Like, that we're like, nope, see you in the morning. Let's stop it.

And it has saved us so much of those headaches where it's like, no one is thinking right when they're drunk. And to have a comfort when you're. Drunk, you're, like, full of projections. It's when all the ghosts come out of the box, it's like, no, you're not getting anywhere. And you can't hear shit that they're saying.

You're like, la, la, la, la. It's, like, not a point. Can I just interrupt, please? I want to say something, but I think one of the things that was so incredible to me when we had that interview three years ago was your capacity to listen. It was really kind of extraordinary.

Orna Guralnik
And I was like, you were so young, and I'm like, how? Wow, this is like, you have a lot of your questions in mind, but then when I'm talking, you're truly listening. Like, it's. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Alex Cooper
I definitely think it's. I have gotten better over the years. I think it's something that I recognize that when people give that to me, it makes me feel seen, and I feel so much more connected with someone. And I think it's definitely allowed me to have deeper relationships in my life, because a lot of people are like, oh, I can tell you actually genuinely give a shit what I'm talking about. And I think that's also why I love my job.

Orna Guralnik
But it's also. I think it also has to do with just honest curiosity. Yes. Like, getting out of yourself and, like, actually being curious about stuff that's outside of you. Yes.

Alex Cooper
Yeah. Someone asked me the other week. They were like, why do you do this? And I was like, I love it. Like, I love sitting across from you.

And next week, it could be a rapper. And I'm like, I love learning about other people because I don't want to just feel so sheltered in my little bubble and be like, let's talk about this this week. Like, people are fascinating. We all have different experiences. Like, it's incredible to come together and be like, I never saw it that way, but I respect it.

And even if you don't move forward and take someone's life lessons, I will always think about it of, like, oh, that person saw it that way, and I have respect for that. On the show, you say, and this is kind of what we're talking about, but I think this is, like, a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about. You talk about how there is usually so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment. How does one step back and see the bigger picture? Because it's difficult.

Orna Guralnik
Very. I think. I think the, you know, when it's in the heat of the moment, when the iron is hot, I think it's a lot to ask of people to really know always what's going on and what might be feeding the superficial fight. I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in there that says to. One says to oneself, I'm sure it's not only about this.

There must be other things going on for me that I'm not exactly aware of right now. I'm gonna. If I need to, if I feel like I'm getting too. You know, there could be signals that you're getting too heated about something that shouldn't be. And then you can say to yourself, maybe I should pause, think about it for a while, and come back to the conversation, not in the heat of it, but just to maintain this kind of kernel of curiosity.

I have an unconscious. There might be other things going on here. There are signals that you give yourself when you get too excited about something, too upset. There's a feeling that you get when something else is going on. I love that in the show, though, when you have those moments with someone, because, again, I think, like, sometimes in romantic relationships, there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain.

Alex Cooper
And, like, the ego does come into play sometimes. And so I understand when I watch people on the show, like, one person doesn't want to give it up. Then when you ask the brilliant question of, like, can we pause for a minute? What do you think? This.

What else is this? About for you? Like, what happened? Like, what was your relationship with your mother? Yeah.

And then all of a sudden, the person goes down a spiral of, like, well, she never gave me attention, and I was always fighting for attention for my mother. And then all of a sudden, sudden, before she even finishes the sentence, she's like, oh, I guess it's. Cause she. She never is looking at me in a way that I feel like I'm having to, like, ask her for attention. Like, it's all these inner dynamics that we had growing up.

Orna Guralnik
I know that when it's in the moment when your. When your partner triggers you, let's say in the way your mom triggered you, it's very hard in those moments to, like, step out and say, oh, it's my mother issues that are playing out right now. Cause it feels so real and so intense in the moment. It's hard. It's hard for people to do.

Alex Cooper
Do you have any advice? Like, how do we check in on ourselves and determine if we're picking a fight, quite literally, just for the thrill of conflict? I think people do love conflict. Yes. Give us some advice, Orna.

Orna Guralnik
I like that you're saying that the thrill of conflict. Because I talk to people about that. People don't usually like to acknowledge that. I think what I would say is, first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the thrill of conflict. Okay.

And I'm going to say something even slightly provocative. There's nothing bad with that. Okay. Or not. I know.

Like, who is she? I know. I'm not like, I don't think, like, the. I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship, but I think sometimes people who need to have fights or pick on each other or let out some steam through the relationship, or. I think that's okay.

I mean, relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark, picture perfect, like, sweetness thing, right? It's a place where people live and discharge on each other and use each other and, in small ways, betray each other and recover. I think that's life. And I think for people not to be so hard on each other, for using each other in that way, for living in the relationship, it's just like, you know, I often talk about the fact that I don't. I don't use, like, I don't even use coasters on my furniture.

I'm like, furniture is to be used, like. Like, leave a stain and cut through the board and. And it's like, that's what it's here for. And relationships are like that, too. You want the relationship to be an alive place.

I think where it gets problematic is if you're really hurting each other and if there's something too pernicious about it or if, like, the thrill of injury is what takes over or of retaliation or injury. That's when I'm like, I draw the line. And I'm like, no, that is not. You're not there to, like, abuse each other. And not every fight is an abuse.

Alex Cooper
That's a really great point, because I think when couples say, like, oh, we had a fight, most of the time, you could also change it to, like, we had an argument or, like, we had a disagreement. Yeah. And I think when you're right, though, like, it. It can be healthy to have fights because you're working through something, but there is a difference between a fight and then something that is, like, absolutely abusing the relationship and is getting you nowhere, and it's just to push and hurt. But I love what you said, though, about how there should be conflict and these relationships, like, we're living in them.

I think we've watched growing up for decades and decades. Like, historically, when you think of romantic relationships, they're held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in our life. Like, who the hell has a perfect relationship with their parents, with their siblings, with their friends? Like, of course you're gonna have conflict, disagreements, growing pains with friends and family. Why do we think that that wouldn't also be true and present in romantic.

Orna Guralnik
Relationships, the person you're the closest to. Right. Yeah. That you have to, like, live with and wake up with and, like, load the dishwasher with. Right, right.

Alex Cooper
And I think that's, like, it's helpful to talk about that to make people feel better of, like, of course no relationship is perfect, but when your primary dynamics were in the household you were growing up in, of course families are going to fight. Now, your new family that you're building, of course there's going to be problems, but it's, how do we actually, like, address the problems? Is it to be cutting and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad? Or is it like you're talking through a disagreement and, like, you're going to sit at the table all night till you guys can find a way to come back together?

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Visit peacocktv.com to learn more. I need to know. And this is for all the daddy gang out there that are like, don't call us out. Why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting? Hmm, okay, good question.

Orna Guralnik
How would we frame it?

I mean, the more kind of classical psychoanalytic way to think about, like, why people get pulled towards, like, abusive and toxic relationships is that it's some form of what we call in jargon, repetition compulsion, where something is unresolved, let's say a past dynamic is unresolved or past trauma or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and unworked through. And you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved, whether it's to master it, to come out of it better or because there's just this kind of compulsion to just repeat the same thing. So that's one reason people get stuck on toxic relationships. But there are other ways to think about it. Like, toxic relationships, one of the things they do, and toxic relationships, I mean, sometimes it's too wide a term.

Alex Cooper
Like, I think maybe not. I don't think we need to go as far as, like, it's abusive. It's just like this very unhealthy. Like, this person is constantly playing games. Constantly.

Like, is there a version of, like, little gaslighting? Like, it's not full blown gaslighting. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's, you know, I often try to, like, when I talk to people about, like, their clinging on to relationships that are not good for them sometimes it's when a person feels on some level, damage or bad about themselves or shame about certain aspects of themselves, they at times go for situations that reinforce that view of themselves.

Interesting, because as you were saying that I was having a moment where I was thinking about when I was in college, I had been, like, super insecure when I was younger and I would go for these men that, like, it was like I was trying to get the guy that was so unattainable. And when I would get him, I was playing the game back. But there was a part of me that enjoyed it because it felt like it was, like, validating to me, like, you got him, like, you did it. And it was almost like healing the wounds of me feeling like no guy wanted me when I was younger and like, I would get picked on. And so when I would get these guys that was like the captain of the hockey team, it was like I almost was going for, like, in my brain accolades of, like, I want to get there to prove it was more to prove to myself I can.

I never felt fulfilled, I never felt happy, but it was like I was replaying, oh, if I was younger, these are things I wish I could have done. And then I got there, I'm like, oh, this isn't fun, right? Like, I don't feel happy. I don't feel seen. But it was like an ego thing almost, right?

Orna Guralnik
And you can. And that is, in a certain way, you're trying to repair something. Yeah, but sometimes it's, I mean, you can in a way, flip it and you can see people who are not doing it to repair, they're doing it actually to just keep telling themselves, I suck. I suck. And what is that?

Alex Cooper
Mostly from childhood. It's a form. I mean, you can think of it as masochism, but it's. It's like it's a, it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat. It's self negating.

Orna Guralnik
I mean, people do all sorts of neurotic things that are bad for them. Yeah, for. I mean, that's why we have psychoanalysis. I mean, yeah, there are many ways that people do things that are bad for them. Have you found through psychoanalysis, like, any repeating pattern from childhood that would make someone constantly try to remind themselves of how they're not worthy, not good enough?

Yes. Can you share just a couple examples? Well, the classic example. I mean, it's kind of an extreme example, but think of the classic pattern of people who've been, let's say, sexually abused as children, and then in teenage years, they're like, they enter a series of abusive, promiscuous relationships that just make them feel like shit because that's the only way they know how to think of themselves. It's like an endless self punishing cycle.

It's a very particular kind of dynamic with people who've had early abuse that it takes deep work to move out of that pattern. But, no, that's so helpful. Yeah, I think, because I think, again, why I appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like, I think a lot of people who maybe have not even begun to experience therapy or thought about it or just wasn't a part of their upbringing, that statement alone would be crazy to people. Like, hold on. So someone that was abused is now gonna go and put themselves in harm's way, right?

Alex Cooper
And it'd be like, wait, what? Like, I'd think they'd just never have sex for the rest of their life and they'd be shut down. That's just not the case. But I think these type of conversations help explain to people, like, the intricacy of trauma and how it unfolds in your adult life. But I appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure, I mean, one in every, what, three women, like, so many women listening to this show may be sitting there like, oh, my God, Orna.

Yeah, I think I'm. I think I'm doing that. And how do you even begin to, like, what? Just therapy and talking through it? I know the work of therapy.

Orna Guralnik
I mean, there are other ways that people deal with issues, but in psychoanalytic work, what we do is we. I mean, this is like, yeah, it's different with each person, but basically the idea is that you try to go back and revisit the actual experience and help the person now, with their more mature mind, really tend to what happened to them, to the injuries, to what was missing. Try to imagine how things could get better. Like, you really try to tend to all the areas that were disavowed and neglected over the years and heal. And I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people.

Alex Cooper
Yeah. People with that type of trauma or any type of trauma, you're like, hold on, Orna, I'm supposed to go back and relive it, right? Are you crazy? Like, I put it away. I tucked it away.

Orna Guralnik
Right. But I think what people realize when they come out on the other side of it is there's such power and resilience you feel within yourself when you can go back and you can start to take control over your own life and not let this thing that happened to you. Yeah. Define you. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
Because it does start to define you when you don't address it. It comes up in your romantic, in your friendships, in every part of your work life, and that's when it gets terrifying. And people, it's so important for people to feel like they're not, like you're saying, defined by bad things that happened to them in the past, that they have some freedom, some degrees of freedom out of that. Yeah. Back to couples.

How. How big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship? It's funny, I just saw something in the times today that I haven't read yet, but about people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage. I think it varies a lot. I think not only is sex this kind of domain that goes anywhere, and people have all possible things in their mind and in their bodies that can transpire between them.

Orna Guralnik
And sex is like a huge terrain. But the importance of sex and what meaning people assign to sex in their relationship varies a lot.

I think for some people, having an ongoing connection through the body, through sexuality, is incredibly grounding, and without that, they feel unmoored. And for other people, it's not like their main. It's not where they live. It's not where the essence of their life is. I mean, for some people, it might be, like, in the far out intellectual domain, and the body is kind of a sort of byproduct that they tag along, but they really live in their mind, and they want to live there with their partner.

It really varies a lot between people. Because I've had conversations with friends, and I have a large spectrum, as you would expect. Like, I have one friend that's, like, my parents weren't overly affectionate. So I don't find myself, like, I don't, like, need sex. I actually just, like, crave more conversation.

Exactly. Whereas I have other friends that are like, oh, I like. The only way I know that we're in a good place is if, like, we've gone too long without sex. I'm like, what's wrong with us? Like, are we disconnected?

Yeah. And I though I'm curious. If you have a couple where one is on one side of the spectrum and one is on the other, that. Then that's tough, right? Tough.

Definitely. It's tough.

If people come into the relationship with very different, let's say, love languages or inclinations, that is tough. What's interesting is that couples might start off not that different from each other. I mean, one might be more physically affectionate or have a stronger libido or, like, find sex is, like, where they express themselves and the other may be a little less. Sometimes what happens, and that is a problem, is that people work out other tensions or difficulties through in that arena, and then they polarize. So someone could, I mean, the bedroom is often where people sadly work out other agendas.

So someone could be, like, mad at their partner for, I don't know, like, not picking up the slack or taking care of the kid or whatever and withhold sex. It's easy for them to withhold sex because that's not exactly their mode of operating. But for the other party, it might feel like the worst kind of punishment and, like, the most threatening thing to do. And then. And then you get into the dynamic of polarization.

So they may not have started so different, but it's. They're working out some other issue through in that domain. And that is a problem. Well, that's also a problem because the person that is not, let's say, as this is just. I'm just throwing this out there.

Alex Cooper
Sexual. That's not the actual right term. But if the person that's not as sexual in the relationship has the power. Right. Mm hmm.

Because they're holding the keys to the sexual relationship and the person that wants it is then at times probably feeling like I'm such the pursuer constantly. I feel like I'm being rejected. I feel like I'm not getting the love I want where the other person is like, all you care about is sex because you just keep coming to me for it. But then they're like, well, because you never come to me for it. And they're like, because you're always wanting it.

How the hell do you like, how do you approach a conversation? I guess when you're in these dynamics with these couples to bring them back. To center, there's no one size fits all. I mean, it really, with each couple, it's a different thing.

Orna Guralnik
But what I find happens a lot in couples therapy is that you have to try to separate if people are trying to negotiate other issues in a way to pull it out of the bedroom. Interesting. If you've got issues that you're working on, if you're resentful about other things, just try not for the bedroom to be the arena where you're, like, working it out. Unless it really is about the bedroom. Right.

Alex Cooper
If you both have just complete different sex drives, like, how do you approach a conversation with your partner if you are dissatisfied in the bedroom? Like, how do we. Cause that's a tough conversation and can be awkward. Tough conversation. And I would actually probably start off by assuming, I mean, unless it's a very verbal couple, I would actually not start with language.

Orna Guralnik
Okay. A lot of sexual needs and differences. It's great to resolve. I mean, if you're gonna try to work on it, to do it in real time through the body, like signal through the body, through nonverbal ways, what you want, what you need, experiment with things. And I guess it depends on the couple.

Like, what works for them, working it out in real time or working it out, like, when you're not in the middle of a sexual encounter, when vulnerabilities are high, passion is high. It's a tricky thing to use language in those moments. It's so tricky because, I mean, unless you're in deep, deep therapy, like, you gotta be very careful because you can completely shut down. And like, I agree to not like, gender it, but like, let's say it is the woman coming to the man. Like, it can just make them feel so shut down where they're like, how long have you been thinking about this?

Alex Cooper
You're dissatisfied, they're feeling emasculated or rolls reversed. The man comes to you and you're feeling like, oh, my God, have you not been enjoying the sex? Every time we're having sex, who are you thinking of? Like, sex is a very, very vulnerable thing in a relationship. And I think you're, I never thought about it that way.

You're right. It's like if you can address it first with your body, like, let's say the person is dissatisfied because ever I'm making this up, like, every time you're having sex with your partner, you're feeling like it's you're disconnected. Like, you're having physical sex, but it just feels physical and there's no connection. Okay, well, instead of saying that, like, you're right, orna, like, maybe you're. When is the last time in the morning?

Are you hugging and kissing before you each leave for work or. No, you're just kind of ships in the night and you see each other. And of course, when you're having sex, of course it doesn't feel intimate and special. Are you hugging? Are you touching?

Do you hold hands? Like, you want more connection of intimacy when you're having sex, put intimacy throughout the rest of your relationship. First before, like, you're right. Like, lead with that. And then all of a sudden do.

Orna Guralnik
It while you're intimidating, while you're having sex. I mean, there are ways that people can increase that kind of intimacy while they're having sex. Not through words, right? Looking at each other, kissing while you're having sex. Like, maybe you guys never kissed while you're having sex.

Alex Cooper
That could feel a little, like, isolating where you're like, this could be anyone. So I love that advice because I do feel a lot of people write into me, just like, I literally don't know how to tell my partner, like, I'm not happy. I think that's, like, a very non daunting way to go about it. It's like, first just slowly trying to make those steps yourself within the relationship and you don't have to have this big blow up conversation. Yeah, why blow up at all?

Orna Guralnik
I mean, when we're talking about sex, I mean, there's the other thing, which is, like, frame things as requests as opposed to. As complaints. I mean, that's always a good piece of advice, which is, like, translate what's bothering you into a request, into an ask rather than a complaint. I mean, the outcome could be very different. Can you give us an example of, like, how it would be bad to say it versus a good way to say it?

Like, you never kiss me versus let's kiss.

Alex Cooper
It sounds so simple, but, like, it's so not that simple when you're in the moment and he's like, doing the dishes and you're like, okay, here I go. Here I go. Why don't you kiss me ever? When we have sex, you never kiss me. I don't know.

The last time that you made out with me, we're having sex and he's literally, like, mid dishwasher. What happened? What just happened? And meanwhile, it's like, you also, I think something I've learned in therapy a lot, and we did it in couples therapy was like, something that you have been holding on to. That's why it's so good to not hold on to things for too long in a relationship, because then you've had 19 conversations with yourself, and they have no idea you've been thinking this, right?

So then when it comes out, it can literally feel like a war, and the person is like, oh, my God, what is happening? I thought our sex life was great recently. Yeah, so you're right. It's like, hey, you know what? I would love to make out when we're having sex.

I was thinking about that. Like, I love making out with you. Why don't we do it when we have sex? Like, making. I wouldn't even say, why don't.

Don't say why don't. Nope. Let's. Let's. Shall we?

Orna Guralnik
Yeah, shall we? As opposed to, why don't we?

Alex Cooper
I love these conversations with you, orner, because when we are going on our day to day lives, like, it is hard to remember all these things. And sometimes it's good to just have these slow down conversations of, like, all of us are the way we are because of everything that's come before us within our lives. And when you're standing across from your partner, it is not just the day we met on our first date and forward. It's like, no, no, no life existed before this person and what happened to you. So I'm curious, like, when we talk about past trauma, because I think this is something that's, like, a misconception.

I think a lot of most people assume we're talking about extreme situations, which we can. Of course, we could do a whole episode on extreme situations, like abuse. But can you talk about other types of childhood dynamics that can impact us in adulthood? Yeah, um, of course. I mean, first of all, there's, you know what I mean?

Orna Guralnik
I think it's quite popular now to talk about, like, attachment styles, but the very first patterns of relatedness that we establish with the people that take care of us, often parents, not always, they will influence the rest of our lives. They will set the kind of expectations we have. For example, a simple and very important thing, like, if you need something and you make an ask to the world, will the world respond or not? Like you're saying, if you asked your parents when you were younger for help on something and before even ask for. Help, like, your diaper was wet and you started crying, how long did it take for your parent to get there and change your diaper?

If you were colicky and you had, like, incredible stomach aches, was it even possible to help you with it? Sometimes it's really difficult to help colicky babies, and they start off the world with some idea that when I'm in distress, the world can't always help me. Oh, my God. Yeah. It's really, like, basic stuff of, like, what to expect from, like, the world.

Like, do I have that, like, incredible trust that when I'm in distress, help will come? Those are really early things that get established, and they're not always because of neglect or abuse. Sometimes it's just like, again, I mean, you can be a colicky baby, or you could have all sorts of ways that your system is dysregulated, and it's very hard to take care of you as a baby. And then you start off with a pattern of, I don't know what to call it, mistrust or some way that the call and response is not established. Well, but I think it's important to just, like, highlight that for a minute because I can imagine a lot of people listening are like, oh, well, I don't have trauma compared to my friend.

Alex Cooper
Like, my friend went this, through this, or was abused when she was younger, did it. And, like, I don't have trauma. It's like, everyone has something that we all are the way we are because of our upbringing. And I think that when we. Instead of being like, well, my stuff is not as bad, take care of yourself and also recognize, like, hey, if you find yourself in a pattern in romantic relationships, we're like, why do I keep doing this?

Oh, and it does kind of show up at work, too. Like, I'm always pulling away when someone's being nice to me. I can't take a compliment or I can't, like, as simple as that. Where does that come from? And I think when we start to ask ourselves the questions, yes, it leads us down this, like, little dark path.

But it's exciting to know that there is an answer. Yeah. And you can resolve it. And the answer could be, like, really interesting, actually, to go down that path and try to figure out. It's actually.

Orna Guralnik
It's really interesting. It is. It's fascinating. That's why I told you, when I binge this show, that's my answer. When I binge couples therapy, it's because.

Alex Cooper
Why? I love it and I can sit and I can handle it is like, one. Because that's just how my mother raised me. Like, let's talk for 19 hours and then some. But it really comes down to, like, I'm fascinated by the human experience of, like, we all grow up and, like, what triggers did we experience to make us afraid of intimacy or overly intimate and overly trusting or reserved or outwardly, like, very dramatic in moments, and people see it as dramatic, but really, what is it?

Is it a cry for attention because you like, yeah, it's interesting. It's endless. Like, I love it.

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Talk to a licensed specialist to find out if it's right for you. Intended for us audiences only question I think is very interesting is I actually had this from a fan, which is where should someone draw the line between being supportive of their partner versus taking on way too much of their partner's trauma as their own? I think that the question itself is an important one. There's a difference between. There's a difference between caring for another person and taking care of them and getting kind of enmeshed, symbiotic, lost in someone else, which is not actually an act of care.

Orna Guralnik
It's something else. It's, I guess, what in lay language is called kind of codependency. You know, it makes me think a little bit about raising children. Doing everything for them is not always the best thing. Figure out, like, what do they need for their own independence and development?

When are you overdoing for your child because of your own issues? Like, you know, using your child to work through something versus seeing them for who they are? And when do they need a bit of support, and when do you need to step back and let them do their own thing? I mean, that's kind of a very good learning ground for this difference between, like, overdoing it and doing it right out of care. I think there are many reasons why people get codependent that are not about care for the other person.

Alex Cooper
Share with me. I mean, you can come, like, a million reasons why, like, getting lost in someone else because you don't want to face something in yourself. You're escaping, like, your own stuff, insecurities, all sorts of avoidance tactics. I think maybe what I'm trying to say is that it's important to try to ask yourself, am I getting super involved because I care for the well being of this person, or am I answering some need of mine here? Hard.

Orna Guralnik
Hard to decipher. That's what I was gonna say. Cause, like, is it. Is it fucked up to say, like, someone that has, like, secure attachment would probably never get themselves completely down a rabbit hole in that situation. Cause they would be like, hold on, love you so much.

Alex Cooper
But, like, you need help, and I can't get this you where maybe it immediately turns on a light for someone of, like, I'm needed, I'm wanted, they need me. And then it becomes codependent because, again, back to the beginning of this episode, it's just filling, actually, something within them to take care of that person. And of course, they think they love them and they're trying, but it also is, like, completely filling their cup by being like, they need me and I'm here and I'm the caretaker, and I didn't have that when I was younger, so now I'm gonna take on that role. Like, whatever it is. That's a really great way of describing.

Yes. But do you think it's almost like, in a way, also to help someone with that question is like, is this too dramatic to be like. It's almost like when if you're dating someone that has a substance abuse problem, you literally are. Cannot help that person to a certain extent. Of course, you can drive them to rehab, but they have to walk in the doors, they have to participate in the healing.

And you're not a professional to help the healing. Right. So when someone has this trauma, you can be there and cry with them and hold them, but it only goes to a certain extent where you're then both being brought down. And if anything, you could be prohibiting them from actually seeking real help because there's this, like, codependency of, like, we're gonna do this together. Right?

You can't. You can't do that together. I agree. They need. They need a you.

Orna Guralnik
Yeah. Well, yeah. Or a me or an aa situation or. Yeah, yeah. More questions from our fans.

Alex Cooper
What are some signs the relationship is moving too fast? You know, a relationship has, ideally, it. I'm saying this, and I'm immediately contradicting myself in my mind, but. Okay, okay. Let me say the first thing.

Orna Guralnik
Okay. A relationship has typically, like, a developmental arc. It takes a lot of time to get to know another person. I always feel like with my patients, it takes me two years to feel like I know this person. Really?

Yeah. I wonder how my therapist feels about me. How long have you been seeing them? Over two years? Yeah, for sure.

I feel like there's a moment in which suddenly it's like, oh, all the pieces are coming together. Now I get this person. It takes a long time to get to know a person. And I think the idea of, like, moving too fast is when you assume you know more than you do, when you think you got it, you understood everything about them. You get it.

They understood you. And in a way, you're blocking all the areas that create the discomfort of realizing, I don't know that person. That person doesn't know me. Which is scary. It's uncomfortable.

It's scary. I think people sometimes have an inclination to want to avoid that and rush so that they don't sit through the discomfort of, like, otherness and unfamiliarity and awkwardness, which is part of getting to know a person. There's going to be a lot of awkwardness. So much awkwardness. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
And I like that you're saying that because I have had women write in being like, Alex, I'm officially 30. I'm like, you're so young. Enjoy it. And it's like, no, no, no. I've got to find a husband.

And I'm always so worried because it's like, listen, I think there's moments also where we completely project our wants onto someone, and they could be literally sitting at a dinner with you being like, yeah. So I have this trauma, and you're like, oh, my God, you know where we should go this weekend? We should go to Cancun. And they're literally like. Like, you're just putting on them what exactly you want.

I want a husband. You look great. You played the part. And it's like we sometimes just approach a relationship based off of what we want from it and need from it, and we completely neglect the fact that the person across from us is, like, I. A stranger?

Yes. A complete stranger. Yeah. And it's like this honeymoon phase. I think the honeymoon phase can be so tumultuous in the long run if you elongate it for too long.

And the honeymoon phase is on you to decide when the bubble pops and you're like, so you want. Actually, who are you? Yeah, literally, like, tell me about your childhood. Mm hmm. Like, what?

What are you insecure about? Like, what is something that has been, like, one of the biggest hardships in your life? Like, it's daunting, but again, like, you can hear an answer from someone and be like, oh, I don't want to be with you because of the way you're telling me. You handled that with this. Oh, my God, I couldn't relate to that at all.

But sometimes people go. Sometimes people. I mean, you've probably seen it. How long have you seen people go in a relationship where you can sit down with them and they're married for, like, 30 years, and you're like, do you guys know each other? I know.

Orna Guralnik
I know. Like, how does that happen? It's actually shocking to me. It's shocking to me. Like, that's possible, right?

Alex Cooper
Like you. Like, possible. I mean, it's like people who, like, their spouse says, I want to get divorced, and I'll ask them, like, somebody can show up for therapy and say, my spouse wants to divorce me. And I'm like, well, what. What have they been.

Orna Guralnik
What have they been saying to you over the years that will help us understand? And they're like, I don't know. What is that? That is self absorption, right? Because it's like, how could you be in a relationship for that long and be completely blindsided, right?

Yeah. I think that's where we decide as humans when we want to block things off or we want to let it in, right? Because I empathize. Like, it's terrifying sometimes you're like, I don't want to blow up my whole life. I like this little bubble I've created.

Alex Cooper
But that is terrifying for someone to be like, I don't know why we're getting a divorce. Yeah. Yes, you do. You, like, sit on my couch for five more hours, we'll get to the bottom. Yeah.

Orna Guralnik
And often what happens in therapy is the person who supposedly didn't know had a whole other part of themselves that did know, and that part is dissociated. That's really interesting. How long does it usually take in therapy to come out? A while. Really?

A while. And I think as we're wrapping up. Oh, my God, I sound like a therapist. As we're wrapping up, you're, like, sobbing. I have done that with my therapist sometimes.

Alex Cooper
And we're wrapping up, Alex, I'm like, wait, my life's in shambles. I appreciate you walking us through that, though, at the end there, because I feel like the whole thesis of this episode is, like, truly trying to dive underneath all these decisions that we are taking on our day to day just at face value. Oh, he treated me like shit. Oh, she did this. Oh, she.

Why? Yeah. There's always an answer. Sometimes we don't want to know it, but it can give you a lot of peace when you do get underneath it, and you know it. Thank you so much.

This relationship that we have makes me so happy. Me too. Oh, it does? Me too. I don't annoy you.

I'm, like, emailing you, like, hi, Orna. No, I have, like, a deep, great fondness for you. Yeah, don't make me cry. No, it's. No, I really appreciate you and everything you do.

And I think this show is truly revolutionary. We don't get to see therapy working from a start to finish moment. And obviously, I know it's not finished, but we don't get to see the, like, breaking down of humans and, like, watching these inner dynamics come from beginning to wherever they're left, whether it's breaking up or staying together. And so I think what you guys are doing is amazing, and I'm addicted, so I'll be watching. Thank you.

Orna Guralnik
Thank you.