Ariana Madix: The Vanderpump Affair (FBF) [VIDEO]

This episode delves into the personal and public fallout experienced by Ariana Madix following a highly publicized cheating scandal involving her former partner, Tom Sandoval, and one of her close friends, Raquel.

1. Depth of Betrayal: The interview highlights the profound betrayal Madix felt, not only by Sandoval but also by Raquel, complicating her healing process.
2. Public and Private Struggle: Madix discusses the difficulty of dealing with personal grief under the public and media spotlight.
3. Emotional Resilience: Through her narrative, Madix demonstrates significant emotional strength and resilience in facing both her personal and public challenges.
4. Support Systems: The importance of support systems, including friends and professional help, is a recurring theme as Madix navigates her recovery.
5. Reflection and Growth: Madix reflects on her personal growth and the insights gained about relationships, trust, and self-care in the aftermath of the scandal.

1. Introduction

Alex Cooper introduces the episode and guest, setting the stage for a deep dive into the cheating scandal. She outlines the background of "Vanderpump Rules" and its impact on the participants' lives. Alex Cooper: "Today, we dive deep into a story of betrayal and healing with Ariana Madix."

2. The Discovery

Madix recounts the moment she discovered the affair, describing her immediate emotional response and the events that followed. Ariana Madix: "It felt like my entire world turned upside down when I found the truth in his phone."

3. The Aftermath

This chapter discusses the immediate and long-term effects of the scandal on Madix's personal life and public persona, including the backlash and support from fans and friends. Ariana Madix: "The support I received helped me through some of my darkest moments."

4. Coping and Healing

Madix talks about her strategies for coping with the betrayal and her journey towards healing, emphasizing self-care and professional help. Ariana Madix: "Therapy played a crucial role in my healing process, helping me understand and manage my feelings."

5. Looking Forward

The final chapter focuses on Madix's outlook on relationships, trust, and her future in both personal and professional contexts. Ariana Madix: "I'm learning to trust again and open up to new possibilities in life."

1. Seek Professional Help: Engage with a therapist to navigate complex emotional landscapes.
2. Lean on Your Support System: Don’t hesitate to rely on close friends and family during tough times.
3. Prioritize Self-Care: Make time for activities that nurture your well-being.
4. Stay Informed: Educate yourself about the dynamics of trust and betrayal in relationships.
5. Embrace Transparency: Communicate openly with those around you to build and maintain trust.

Prepare for an explosive episode of Call Her Daddy as Ariana Madix exposes the shocking affair that unfolded between her boyfriend of nine years and one of her closest friends. Ariana takes us through the heart-wrenching night she discovered the betrayal, revealing new details that will leave you speechless. Ariana confronts the rumors head-on. Uncover the origins of the open relationship speculation and learn whether she turned a blind eye or fought to salvage the relationship. She reveals new information that has since emerged about the affair, including Tom secretly flying Raquel to his hometown, the moment he had sex with Raquel when Ariana was home and more. In this candid and unfiltered conversation, Ariana pulls back the curtain on the intricacies of her relationship, sharing both the highs and lows. She openly discusses her grief and the weaponization of her mental health. Join Ariana as she explores life after the reunion and provides insight into her new fling, offering a glimpse into what lies ahead for her. Call Her Daddy apparel is here. Shop at ⁠⁠⁠⁠shop.callherdaddy.com

People

Ariana Madix, Tom Sandoval, Raquel

Companies

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Books

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Guest Name(s):

Ariana Madix

Content Warnings:

Discussion of infidelity and emotional distress

Alex Cooper
Daddy Gang, I am so excited because Ariana Maddox is our guest on call her daddy today. If you are a fan of the reality show Vanderpump rules, you know exactly who Ariana is. You don't need any preface to this interview. You're ready to dive in. But for those of you who may not be familiar and have never watched the show, I got you.

I get it. You're stressing out. You're like, I can't watch this interview because I'm not going to know anything. I don't know the backstory. Daddy gang, I got you.

I'm going to break this down for you so you can follow along and also enjoy this episode. So here we go. Vanderpump Rules is a reality television show that is on its 10th season. Naturally, with reality shows, there's been tons of emotion and drama throughout the years and there have also obviously been hookups, breakups and cheating scandals. Which brings me back to my guest today.

Today, Ariana Maddox. Ariana stars on the show alongside her former long term boyfriend, Tom Sandoval. And let me be so clear, when I say long term, daddy yang, I don't mean like, oh, they've been. They've been going steady for a couple of years. No, no, no.

I mean, they were dating for nine years. They bought a house together, they have dogs together. They were planning on freezing embryos together and they plan to spend the rest of their lives together. That is until Ariana found out that Tom had been cheating on her for nearly seven months. And daddy gang, he wasn't fucking some stranger or some chick off of Instagram.

No, it is truly everyone's worst nightmare. He was cheating with one of Ariana's closest friends and fellow castmates, Raquel. A huge betrayal as well as a complete and total blindside. But also fucking classic, right? The boyfriend and the best friend are cheating.

Awful. This affair has been secretly happening the entire time season ten was being filmed and no one knew. But now, as we've seen, the news has leaked. Everyone is dying to see how this drama continue to unfold somehow. A new story is new every fucking week on this shit.

And we've obviously, obviously seen glimpses. Almost every single castmate has spoken out about this. They have gone on podcasts, news channels, radio. I mean, this is everywhere. Even CNN and the New York Times have reported on this cheating scandal.

Apologies have been posted. Sides have been taken. Everyone is extremely shook and extremely invested. But the one person that we have not heard from in long form and the most important person that we need to hear from for a sit down, in depth interview is Ariana. I also want to point out, obviously this is such a noisy scandal and everyone's, like, excited to hear.

I just want to remind everyone this is Ariana's life. This was her relationship, this was her best friend. And when this happened, at the time, it probably felt like her world was turned upside down. So even if you don't watch reality tv, that's okay because unfortunately this episode is extremely relatable because it's about cheating, betrayal, dishonesty, manipulation and heartbreak. So, daddy gang, I'm excited to give you Ariana.

And I'm excited to give her a space to open up and speak about this and have a really open, honest conversation. So here we go. Let's get into it.

What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with call her daddy. Daddy. Daddy. Daddy.

Ariana Madix
Hi. Hi. Ariana Maddox. Welcome to call her daddy. Hi.

Thanks for having me. How are you doing? I'm okay. Can you explain what the past few months have felt like to you? A rollercoaster.

I mean, truly like the lowest lows, I think maybe ever, maybe since my dad died, that I've experienced. And then I wouldn't say the highest highs, but I would definitely say that there's been like some really amazing bright spots. And it sometimes feels like, I don't know, like a ping pong match in between those two extremes. Right? I have a tendency to, like, compartmentalize a little bit with emotions.

It's the Virgo moon in me. But it's weird because also sometimes when I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm doing. I'm feeling good. Like, things are really positive, then people on the Internet will be like, why? She must have not cared.

They're mad at me for healing, but then they like. But that's the thing is it's like everyone's always gonna have an opinion about how you should live. Totally. Something I wanna talk about is I think so many people have had something to say for so long about this scandal and we haven't really heard from you about start to finish in long form, your thoughts, everything that's gone down. So today I'm hoping we can pull, put it all into one.

Alex Cooper
You're like, okay, let me just. Let's take a little rose. Cheers. Here we fucking go. Necessary.

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That's a z o products.com. Can you take me back to the night that you found out that Tom was cheating on you with your, at the time best friend, Raquel? Like, I know you were at a concert of Tom's. His phone fell out of his pocket. Someone handed it to you to just take your boyfriend's phone and hold it.

Take us from there. So they had, like, one more song after that. And so I was holding, like, my phone and his phone just kind of as a stack and had no, like, there's nothing weird about that. I mean, we were together for nine years. Like, me holding on to his phone, his, you know, his laptop, his, you know, whatever is not weird.

Ariana Madix
So they had, like, one more song, and then afterwards I got up to go over to him and tell him, like, good job, and give him his phone back. And he was talking to some other of the band members. So he's a little preoccupied, he's a little busy. And I was like, okay. And then literally, I just.

In that moment, I was standing in the back of tomtom, and I just was like, I don't know. I was just like, it felt like divine intervention or something, because I've always been very hesitant to become the snooper. Because I always feel like anytime you snoop in anyone's stuff, even if they're not guilty of doing anything wrong, you always end up finding something you don't want to find or seeing something you don't want to see. And I always feel like it's a slippery slope because once you look once, then you want to, it becomes an addiction. Cause I've been like that in past relationships.

So in this one, I was always like, I'm not gonna do that. And if I ask about something, I will, you know, take their word, Tom's word at, you know, face value. Exactly. Like, I will be someone who trusts because I don't wanna become that version of myself. Totally.

And so. But in that moment, I just had this thought, like this, like, go do it. This is like a time to do it. And so I went into the bathroom at Tomtom. I went into one of the stalls.

He had not changed the passcode on his phone, so I knew. And that's the other thing is, like, we knew each other's passcodes. We knew each other's. So it felt like if you were going to be the type of person who is going to have an affair or be cheating or hiding things, you wouldn't also be so readily giving of your stuff like that. And so I looked in his messages.

There was nothing weird in his messages. And I was like, okay, maybe you're being dumb, you know? And then I opened his camera roll. And then that's when I saw what I saw. And I, like, busted out of the stall and there were, like, some girls in there that were just trying to go to the bathroom.

And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. And then because I didn't go to the bathroom and I thought, they're gonna think I'm leaving the bathroom and not washing my hands. I was like, I promise I didn't pee or anything. And then I just ran out of the bathroom and went straight up to him. And he was like, oh, hey, do you want to go smoke a cigarette or something?

And I was like, yeah, I do, actually. And it's funny because there's a photo of him that I've seen, like, used in articles and stuff. And it's from literally the moment I was walking up and his arms like this, and I see that photo and I'm like, that was literally like the moment before. And then we went, and then he was very, we went straight out to the back behind tomtom. That's when I confronted him.

What the fuck? Is this okay? Wait, pause for 2 seconds. Yeah. I feel like no one is saying specifically what the video is.

Alex Cooper
Are you guys not legally allowed to be talking about what the video is? I don't know, axie. Can I say what I'm speculating? Yeah, I can say. I think the speculation is in the camera roll.

There was a screen recording that he screen recorded while they were on Facetime of them having Facetime sex. That's what I'm thinking. And I think I know is what it was, but you don't have to confirm. But just to give people context that may have no idea about this drama yet. I don't know how you would you live under a rock, but that.

So you view something like that. Can you just take me back in the stall? Bring me to the moment where you come across realizing he's cheated on you with Raquel? What were you thinking in this doll? I was, like, shaking, like, full body.

Ariana Madix
I don't know if it's anger shock. I think shock is a big part of it because I've been cheated on in my life before, and I've caught somebody before, like, that way in my past. And I guess it's that feeling I hadn't felt. And we're talking 15 years, and it's hard to describe, but it's literally, like a combination of shock and anger and somehow disbelief that this is, like, truly what you're seeing. And.

Yeah. And then, like, there's just. I don't know. It's really, like, a huge mix of emotions. It is.

Alex Cooper
And, like, did you think this was a one off, or did you immediately think this has been a relationship? I mean, there's no way that it could be a one off given the closeness of, like, all of our relationship to her. You know what I mean? So there's no way. And also to feel so comfortable doing that on a Facetime, you know, there's no.

Ariana Madix
There's just no way of it being, like, a one time. Oh, we just decided one day to facetime sex. Right. Drunkenly, I'm like, who should I call? Well, I'm gonna call Raquel.

Alex Cooper
And just like, yeah, yeah, no, right, yeah. So you start confronting him. What does he say? He was very. He wanted us to get into a car.

Ariana Madix
He wanted us to get into an Uber and leave immediately. He was starting to call a car, and then he took my phone, and then I was trying to get my phone back, and he ended up walking down San Vicente with my phone, and I was in, like, boots with a heeled. So I was like, freaking Usain bolt being like, I need my phone back. Like, why did he take your phone? Because he thought.

Cause I was like, oh, I'm gonna tweet about this. I mean, obviously I'm not, but you know what I mean. You say things like that in those moments. You're not like, of course I'm not calm about it. You know, I was freaking the fuck out.

And he was very concerned about people hearing us because obviously, we know a lot of people in West Hollywood. We know a lot of people at all the different bars, and we were in the back of all these bars, and he was very concerned about people finding out. And I was like, I don't care. Why would I care? Who am I protecting by doing that?

Alex Cooper
So do you both get in a car together? And where do you go? Home. Home. What happens in the car and when you get home?

Ariana Madix
So in the car, we were. So I called Rachel during all of this. After I got my phone back on San Vicente, I called her, and that's when I was like, if you ever gave a shit about any woman ever, about me as your friend, about literally anything, you need to tell me, like, when this started, whatever. Like, tell me. I was hysterical.

And she said, that's when she said the part about, like, after the girls trip. And I was like, you mean when my dog died? Like, when Charlotte passed away is what the girls trip was like. The fact that that is not even on your radar at all in describing this. And that's when Sheena came up, and that's when Sheena took her phone and then said, I'm gonna call you from my phone.

I'm throwing her phone in the gutter. Sheena called me from her phone. I get in the car, Sheena's on the phone with me, and then he gets in the car, and now he's on the phone with her. So all four of us are on the phone together, and it's literally like, why are you caring? Like, why are you on the phone with her?

Like, who gives a shit about her right now? And then that's when he was just very dismissive. Very defiant. Dismissive. Dismissive of Sheena's friendship to me and to him in that moment.

Like, it was very much like, just. And the poor Uber driver. We should get him in here. I know. I remember at one point, we stopped and got a pack of cigarettes because I was like, I want to just.

I want to drink it on chains. You know what I mean? Like, gets that. You're, like, one of those nights, like, please. And he went into the gas station, and I was just in the phone in the car with the Uber driver at that point.

And I was just like, are you hearing this? And the uber driver was like, yeah. Man's like, whoa. But, like, give me five star, girls. Yeah.

Like, it was. So you get home, and this is the part I think I've seen the world be so fascinated because you guys live together, you own a home together. So you both go home that night, and is it just like a screaming war till, like, you fall asleep? Essentially, yeah. Do you sleep in the same room?

No, no, not at that point, no. So you sleep in a different room. And, like, when you're by yourself, like, what were you thinking? Oh, I mean, well, I made sure to text close friends of mine and of his because I was like, I am not going to be in a position where. And luckily, because of the sheena of it all, like, at least I was like, no, we're not keeping this a secret.

Alex Cooper
Other people knew. Yeah. So I was making, like, texts were slowly trickling. Like, what is. What is happening?

Ariana Madix
Are you kidding me? I mean, I didn't sleep. I mean, I didn't lay down to sleep until maybe, like, 06:00 a.m. That was how long we were, like, going at it, I guess. And he was just mad at me pretty much the entire time.

Alex Cooper
That's also when I've been cheated on. It's like when someone that has been keeping a secret for so long gets called out. All they've been doing is lying. And so I feel like their natural response is lean in harder to, like, trying to gaslight you, trying to distort your reality, like, trying to make you feel crazy somehow and, like, not take accountability. And somehow you're like, how are we fighting?

How are you yelling at me like, you fucked my best friend? Yeah. And I'm, like, screaming, crying, throwing up in this moment, and you're just, like, annoyed at the whole thing, basically. So that night ends, and what we do know is, like, when this happened, you guys were not filming anymore. No.

So how long after this happened did the cameras finally get in there? So this was Wednesday night, and so it was Friday morning that cameras were. At my house, because what I could notice, because we've all been through a breakup. Like, that is, like, the conversation in the finale that we watched felt more like a breakup than, like, post morning. Like, literally go fuck yourself.

Like, fuck you. There had been that little bit of that back and forth. Yeah. The final conversation between you guys, it was infuriating, I think, for the nation to watch because he's blaming you, being like, I lost my mojo. We never had sex.

Like, I wasn't myself. I wasn't happy. And he was quite literally taking no accountability whatsoever for his actions. What was it like sitting there listening to someone as you're hurt, try to deflect all responsibility for what they had done? It was awful.

Ariana Madix
It was brutal. But it was also what he had been doing for that past 48 hours up until that moment. So I almost kind of, like, knew that that's where he was headed. But then listening to it in the moment, not knowing what other people around me are thinking when they hear it, I'm like, is this. Am I?

Like, you start to really question your own sense of reality. And this whole thing had me, like, I did not at that point, like, that 48 hours, especially that night, that Wednesday night, and that Thursday day, like, and going to that conversation without having any other, like, witnesses or. And also being in this position where it's, like, my partner of nine years and one of my best friends, like, my sense of reality was gone. Like, I just did not know, like, what was up and what was down at that point. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
You were very vocal this season about defending Tom and Raquel when people would come to you and you, like, had their backs. If someone would have come forward, and I know this is a hypothetical, but if someone would have come forward and told you about the fair, do you think you would have believed them, or do you think you had to, like, see it yourself to believe it? I think I would have believed it if it was told to me off camera or if it was told to me. You know what I'm saying? Because I think to some degree, a lot of what I felt was rumors and rumblings was, which has happened before, people being like, okay, I heard a little something about something, but I'm gonna bring it up because that's our job, is, you know, we bring up everything that we hear about, and a lot of times, it's nothing.

Ariana Madix
And I was like, well, if it's nothing, I'm not gonna have, like, my friend and my boyfriend be, like, dragged through the mud. I get what you're saying. It's almost like being on reality tv for so many years, you become almost more accustomed to, this is obviously for content. This is for the show. This is for the show.

Alex Cooper
This is drama. This was, like, you're not actually gonna believe that kind of shit. So if it was genuine, it would have come off camera right? Or it would have caught. Yeah.

Ariana Madix
It would have been a friend who's like, I'm gonna end up bringing this up on camera, but I need to tell you first. But I need to tell you first, because I think it's actually really real, and I think that that's something that, like, my close friends would have have done. Okay, so I got it. Yeah. Okay.

Alex Cooper
I do want to take a step back, because as much as we're talking about, like, in the weeds of, like, this affair, you were in a relationship for nine years with this man, and you guys were friends before you got into a relationship. What was it that first initially attracted you to Tom? I just thought he was so earnest and everything that he did, and I found it really, like, endearing that he would be over the top in making a cocktail or over the top in just everyday parts of life. Like, I thought it very endearing and sweet, almost. And I also thought he was a really good friend to the people close to him, and I thought that that was a really good quality.

Yeah. How would you have described your relationship with Tom to someone? I would have described it as, like, we used to call each other, like, apocalypse buddies, you know, like, the person that all shit goes to hell, and this is the person that you can rely on, that you want with you, who's gonna continue to, like, make you laugh and get through all of what life has to throw at you. And, like, honestly, even right up until me finding out about this affair, like, even during. While the affair was going on, we were still, like, laughing together, you know, having, like, our little.

Ariana Madix
We had so many, like, little inside jokes and things like that. And, I mean, if you were to go through, like, either of our camera rolls, you would see just, like, so many, even during the affair, amazing, fun memories together. What was your sex life like in the beginning and then, like, as your relationship progressed? I mean, in the beginning, I was definitely struggling with. I was very excited that someone was, like, really, I thought, really into me, because the relationship I was in previously, that sex life was fine, but at the same time, I was being, like, criticized very heavily about my body and my personality, just everything.

And so I was like, oh, my gosh, this is somebody who's, like, really into me. And so that was very exciting. And I think that our sex life waxed and waned at different points. I definitely think that, you know, got to a point sometimes where, you know, I just wanted that quality time so bad. And I just think that in my mind, I thought, well, if we get through opening this bar, if we get through all this stuff, like, then we'll be able to have all this time together.

And I felt like he just was adding more and more things to his plate, and I just didn't. I don't know. I felt like I'm like, oh, well, he's just not into me. Yeah, it's like you lose the connection almost. And I think that's something because there's so many things you just said.

Alex Cooper
First is from your past relationship going with someone that was very vocal about things they didn't like about you or your body or your personality. Like, that takes a toll on your self confidence. So then to meet this guy that's larger than life and funny and jokes and is so into you, it's like, I totally understand that allure, and you feel alive and happy and good with yourself. In the season. I think probably one of the hardest scenes for women specifically to watch was that scene with you and Raquel, where you open up to Raquel as your friend at the time, again, to people watching.

Ariana did not know about the affair yet, and you voice that, you feel insecure about your body, and you say, you know, why would he want to have sex with me? And watching her speak to you knowing she was fucking your partner is so painful to watch. But when I watched that, I felt so bad for you because I'm like, did Tom not make you feel confident and make you feel good? It felt like, you know, he would complain about frequency of sex, and it felt like he wanted to have sex, but I was like, but do you want to have sex with me? Is it about me, or is it just about the act?

Ariana Madix
And that's where I was like, okay, so, but what is it about? He wasn't really great with, like, the words of, you know, like, descriptors. I was like, be specific. Like, what do you like? You know, like, what do you like about me?

Yeah. Like, I need to know those. Like, I want to know those things. Or I would be like, okay, well, do you, like, you know, people have said that they think I have a nice ass. I don't know if I agree with that, but do you agree with that?

Do you. And he would, like, be very turned off by the idea of me, like, being, like, can you. Do you like that part of me? Or, like, what are the, you know? Right.

And I think that it wasn't coming necessarily from a place of, like, he didn't like my body. I just don't think he knew how to express. Or maybe there's just a disconnect there. And, like, yeah, love languages or how to, like, click in that way. I get what you're saying, but I also, to any fucking guy listening to this, it's like when your partner is so clearly being like, I need some reassurance.

Alex Cooper
I don't know the last time you've given me a compliment that's also like a, hey, wake up. Like, you want sex. Well, why would I have sex with someone that I don't know the last time I felt, like, pretty in front. Of you, I'd be like, can you objectify me? Maybe like, call me fucking hot, right?

Ariana Madix
Or like, he would say things like, oh, nice outfit. When I was naked or changing, he'd be like, nice outfit. And I'm like, I get the joke, but, like, that's not. It's not connect. That's not gonna, like, no, really get me there.

Alex Cooper
Something that really pisses me off is when men try to justify their cheating by being like, but we weren't having sex. Like, I need to get my fix somewhere. And, like, it's so often that women are deemed as the problem. And of course, a guy went and cheated, like, you weren't having sex. But it's like, but why weren't you having sex?

And so was there ever a point where Tom, or, like, the situation as you kept hearing it, like, we weren't connecting, we weren't physical? Was there ever a point where you were questioning, was that your fault? I mean, I think in the past I would have been inclined to do that, but because I was. Had been in therapy, and for years at that point, I knew. And couples therapy with him, by the way, and the couples therapist literally sat across from both of us and said, this is a him problem.

Ariana Madix
This isn't a you problem. You know, there's certain things I have to take accountability for in the relationship, but when it came to stuff like that, it's like, no, this is something that he's going through, that he's dealing with. And don't take that on yourself. Like, just please don't. Cause it is my inclination to be like, I'm not enough.

You know, we all have that lie that whatever the big lie is that we all tell ourselves, mine is the not enough lie. And the therapist was like, please don't do that. Right. This actually has nothing to do with you. Yeah, I know.

Alex Cooper
Hindsight is obviously 2020, and it's like, you can look back and try to, but, like, were there any signs of red flags in the beginning of the relationship? That you now see. I think in the beginning, it was like, you know, he likes to go out a lot, and I thought that that was just, like, the phase of life that we were in, and I would have thought that nine years later, we would be in a different phase. I think I'm in a different phase of my life. I still like to go out and have fun.

Ariana Madix
I go to festivals. I party, have a good time. But as far as going out during the week, just for the hell of it, it's not anyone's birthday. It's not a dinner and drinks. That's just not where I'm at anymore.

And I thought that we were in that phase together, and then we would come out of it, but I feel. Like he never grew up. He didn't really? Yeah. When you look back, I know a huge conversation on the Internet.

Alex Cooper
Is your relationship with tom started by him cheating on his girlfriend, kristen. You guys kissed, he lied to you, and was like, I'm not with her anymore. But then it turns out kristen was like, we were fully together, so. And people are like, oh, you lose them. How you got him.

Like, he cheated on Kristen. He cheated on you. Like, how do you feel looking back at how your relationship started and how people are now? Like, are you that surprised? Like, he did it to Chris and he did it to you?

Ariana Madix
Well, to be very clear, I didn't lose him. He lost me. So that's right there. Sorry. But I think that I trusted in him so much, even, like, as a friend back then, and I trusted him so much, like, during our relationship, that I trusted his perspective on things.

And I think that I was caught up in whatever he told me, whatever it was that he was telling me was what I was going with. That's not to say, like, I'm a smart girl. Like, you know, I could have dug deeper, but I didn't. Kristen and I are very close, and I love her so much. And their relationship, as she will tell you, it was very toxic, and there was a lot of cheating on both sides there.

Whatever. I love her. She's amazing. She's a very strong, incredible woman, and she has become, like, just such a force. I think that it's something that just goes to show that that's kind of.

Maybe just what he does is he says things like, I tried to end it, or I'm, you know, things like that, or, oh, we're broken up, or things like, whatever it is. I would like to think that maybe this thing that's happening right now will prevent him from ever doing that again with any other person just because I think it's time to put that little tactic to bed. Uh huh. But, yeah, when you look back, I'm just thinking, like, do you think he's a pathological liar? I mean, it's hard to.

I mean, clearly in the last seven months, he was a pathological liar. Yeah. It's now hard for me to look back at nine years, and if I tell myself he's a pathological liar, then I means that the last nine years of my life were potentially a lie. But he did say stuff on that finale episode to Sheena, like, we weren't happy and we bought the house as a Band Aid. I'm like, a band aid to who?

Because that wasn't where I was at at all. Or things like, there were a lot of things from his perspective that have been said in that episode and otherwise that it's like, oh, okay, well, that's maybe how you were thinking, but that's nowhere near where I was. Right. And also, we're in a relationship, so you should have shared that to me because I would have loved to known that because I probably wouldn't have bought a house with you if you were like, just to be clear, babe, this is a band date. You'd been like, the fuck?

I would've been like, okay, well, maybe we should fix our relationship then now and do that and not do. Yeah. Couple therapy. You and Tom got into couples therapy this past year, and after he started. The affair, after he was full blown at that point.

I didn't know that, but. So when you got into couples therapy, you had no idea about the affair. You go in and he claims he initiated it. Is that true? Initiated couples.

Alex Cooper
Couples therapy? Yeah. Yes. But it had been brought up by one or both of us over the years of being together. Yep.

And it's since been revealed that he got you both into couples therapy as part of his eventual plan to end the relationship. What explanation did he give you as to, like, why he was so gung ho ready finally for couples therapy? I mean, he was just. We got into an argument one day. Well, you saw on the show, we had that conversation on the couch, and it was that conversation and, like, one other one that we have where it was like, I think we should go to couples therapy.

Ariana Madix
And I was like, absolutely, I would love that we should do that. But it was those things and those conversations that led us to that, to going. And I remember specifically one session because we would do joint and we would do separate. And in my separate sessions. I was doing inner child work.

I was sobbing with her. I was. I mean, I felt like I was making leaps and bounds. And he even said, oh, we went to couples therapy, and our relationship got so much better. Right?

But, like, it's like, well, duh, right? Like, it's almost like a little counterintuitive that if he actually had the intention of ending it with you, why the fuck are you going to couples therapy? I remember even saying after one of them, I was like, okay. So there was a session where it got really intense. It felt like maybe we were ending.

And at the end of the session, she was like, okay, so is this a breakup? Are you guys. And he was like, no. So that's where it's like, I don't know. Do you mind sharing when you guys are fighting?

Alex Cooper
Because obviously you're not fighting about the affair. What were your issues in the relationship? My issues is that I felt like he was not choosing me over random nights out or that he just wasn't coming home. Like, he would want to just be at Schwartz's for no reason. Well, now, you fucking know, just, you.

Ariana Madix
Know, having beers and whatever, or coming home. And then, you know, I'd wake up and I'd be like, where are you? And I would, like, go down. He's just downstairs, like, having faces, smoking cigarettes and probably, but, like, you know what I mean? It was just like the absenteeism boyfriend without and the I have to do this for work.

You know? It was just everything was coming before me and before the relationship, and I felt like. And I needed that connection and that stuff, that all that stuff in order to be physically intimate. And I knew that physical intimacy was something that he was saying he was lacking. So I'm like, I don't know how I can meet you where you need to be when I'm not being met where I need to be.

Like, how do we figure this out, right? It's almost like you both couldn't. It was a circle. It's like, no, but come home earlier. He's like, no, but.

Alex Cooper
Like, I'm miserable because we don't have sex. Like, but we need to hang out in order to have sex. And it's just like, it, like what. I said on the show, I was like, I can't teleport your dick into my vagina from the bar. Because if you're at the bar and I'm at home, like, I'm here, you know, maybe I'm ready and you're just not there.

Ariana Madix
So how do we do this, right? Like, we can't actually physically do this if you're never. What? Like, exactly. So, yeah, so Tom did mention on that Howie Bandel podcast, like, things did shift.

Alex Cooper
You started to make an effort. Like, what did you. Making an effort in his mind, do you think? Look, like, I think I just was doing my best to be present and going out with him more and trying to be more fun. Party time, galaxy, you know, I was just trying to be, I don't know, like, fun and hot.

Ariana Madix
I don't know. Right, dude. And, like, how the fuck did you feel when you were doing that? I mean, part of me was just like, I mean, this is fine because again, I was still doing, like, that inner child work. And it was, you know, I felt like that was really helping me just be like, I love myself and I'm, you know, doing.

I mean, that, like, really changed the game for me. When you say doing inner child work, like, obviously share what you're comfortable with, but what was something that you were really struggling with that was clearly you felt bleeding into your relationship that you were like, I'm gonna work on this shit. Cause I wanna be whole and good with myself. I think this sense of perfectionism because, I mean, I love my dad, but my dad also didn't come home after work and stuff. And I was always, like, straight a student, super overachiever.

And I think, like, going back and looking at it, a lot of times I did those things. I mean, maybe because I wanted people to be like, I'll be there. So I thought, like, if I could be the perfect girlfriend or the perfect girl, that they'll come home, they'll want to be around me and I'll be enough. I won't have to be me. Tap dancing, doing shrooms and hang gliding.

I can just be me and that will be enough. Isn't it so fucked when you get into therapy also? You're like, oh, my God, is it this obvious of, like, I'm dating a version of my dad or I'm dating a. You're like, how did this happen? My dad didn't come home.

Alex Cooper
Tom's never fucking home. Yeah, I mean, I hate to speak ill of my. I love my dad. He's a great person in so many ways, but he would, you know, sometimes just be like, okay, where there's a random dive bar down the street. I'd go do that instead of coming home and helping with homework.

But it also makes sense, Ariana, because weirdly, we are attracted to things that are familiar to us. So it's like, if that is what you were growing up with, weirdly, you're like, oh, I fucking got this with Tom. Like, I know how to deal with this. I know how to deal with it. I can do it the right way.

Ariana Madix
Like, oh, I can do it right this time. I can kind of do it all over again and be better and be better. And actually, he'll come home, watch. Like, and then it's like, actually, you deserve so much more. That's actually not on me.

It's on them. No, no. You want someone that actually wants to come home, and you don't have to beg them to be like, come on. Like, show up. Be there, right?

Alex Cooper
You said that you hadn't considered ending the relationship before all of this came out. Were you truly happy in this relationship? I don't know. I think I was a version of happy that I thought was I don't know what I wanted. And I also felt like the bones of the relationship were good.

Ariana Madix
And I felt as though the potential for the relationship to be just incredible was there. And I think it was the potential and the okay, if we can make it through this time. The Fred again song, we lost dancing. I literally, the night that Tom or that Schwartz and Sandys had their last opening thing, I was driving Tom home, and I was like, just listen to the words of this song. And in the song, when I think it's the blessed Madonna says, if I can make it through this next six months, what comes next will be marvelous.

And I literally was like, if you can get through this, if we can get through this opening of this bar and whatever, what comes next for us will be marvelous. And I I just cannot believe that he'd already been having at that point. He was already. I don't know, but it's. It's must be such a mind fuck where you're like, which I also want.

Alex Cooper
Cause I know I've done it, too, where, like, I remember when I was getting cheated on and I didn't know it at the time, and you're making such an effort, and you're like, I feel so fucking stupid. Like, how dare. And it's like, no, no, no. You're not stupid. You were trusting the person you were in love with.

And so it's like, you also have to wrap your head around, like, this wasn't your fault. But it's, like, also crazy now that you remember these details of you putting in so much fucking work and being like, we got this, Tom. My only question, though, is, like, nine years now, when you look back. Cause you're like, oh, my gosh. I was like, you know, I was obsessed with, like, the potential.

Like, I really wanted the potential. Nine years in, if you're still fantasizing about the potential of what a relationship could be, do you now have any ability to look and be like, hmm, if I didn't. You know what I mean? Like. Or did you feel it in the first couple years?

And then it dropped off? Like, was it always like this? I feel like things would kind of. They would. They would wax and wane.

Ariana Madix
They would be ups and ebbs and flows, and I feel like we would have so many amazing times. So then if there was, like, a couple weeks that were, like, not great, or if I was, like, unsure about something, there was so much other stuff that was great. Or I would be, like, laugh. We would be laughing hysterically about something or that. It was almost like, I think, hard to say, oh, this person's not right for me because I also had never been in a relationship that long before, so it's hard to know, like, what is it supposed to be like, you know, because past, I think my.

My longest adult relationship previous to that was, I think, like, three years or so. So it's, like, past that point. This is uncharted territory. And I'm thinking this is what it is. You know, when you're with someone for nine years, when you're with someone for maybe potentially 1020, right.

Alex Cooper
Like a fucking decade. Decade, you know, things are gonna be hard sometimes. I get that. I actually think that's, like, really relatable of, like, you try to see the good. Cause there is good, but when it's ebbing and flowing, you have to be like, we just have to stay strong through the hard times.

Like, we just have to make. But because people say that who have been together for 50 years, who have never cheated, and you have, like, they're, like, the greatest love story of all time, and you think, like, okay, yeah, they said that we had some hard times. Like, sometimes you have a year that's hard, right. And I. Especially this past year, I went through a lot, and I felt like, okay.

Ariana Madix
And he was going. I felt like we were both on our own going through these things. And so I thought, like, we'll get through this together because, I mean, I'm committed to this man. But he had a full other relationship going on, right? This season, we found out a lot about your relationship there.

Alex Cooper
You had talked about, like, how at times you would go through his phone and he was open with you, and he would hand it to you. Or then we found out on watch what happens live. You were like, I had the iPad password, you fucking idiot. Like, they're always so stupid. And Tom mentioned you guys were only having sex four times a year and you were living pretty separate lives.

Were you lonely? Yeah. But no, because I had my best friend, so he would be so jealous of me hanging out with my best friend Logan. Right? And he would be like, I feel like a third wheel when I go out with you guys.

Ariana Madix
And I'm like, well, because you go outside and you are on the phone or you're doing, you know, you. And so it's like, I don't want that for you. But. So I filled that. I filled that absence of him not coming home and not wanting to do the same things that we wanted to do.

I filled that absence with the most incredible people I know, which are my. Friends, which is like, such. Also a beautiful thing that you had great friends, but also kind of, like, clearly a deflector of, like, instead of being like, why are we never hanging out? I'm just gonna hang out with my friends. Which is great.

Alex Cooper
We love your friends. Cause he was going and doing that, you know, and it was just like. But honestly, though, the separate lives comment to me is just so not true. I mean, to some degree, maybe, yeah. But when you're saying, like, I have to work, I'm trying to open this bar and, oh, I have to go to dinner with Schwartz and Brett because we have to talk about the bar.

Ariana Madix
And then. Oh, I thought you were gonna be home right after dinner. It's twelve. Like, what are you doing? Oh, we just went to get drinks next door at bird's.

You know, like, things like that. And it's like, okay, well, but then if I. Again, my camera roll and his camera roll, because I have it right. If you look at it, it's. We're still.

We're going to concerts, we're going on dinner dates. Where we are, there is some. There is effort being made somewhere of, like, you know, it just felt like it just wasn't enough. I don't know. I get it.

Alex Cooper
You obviously mentioned you went through a rough year. You lost your grandmother, you lost your dog. I'm so sorry. How were you mentally grieving during that time? And, like, what was your relationship with Tom when you were grieving?

Cause I know you've been open about, like, when you lost your dad. Tom was there. He was like, your rock. He was in it with you. He was like, the person for you.

And this time around was very different. Were you concerned at all or were you just, like, full grieving? You didn't even, like, give a fucking pay attention. Yeah, I was full grieving. Cause my concern.

Ariana Madix
Well, with Charlotte, my dog, he was there with me. He held her as we said goodbye. We literally said goodbye to her together. And then we went home and I put on my comfort movie, which is love, actually. And we drank wine and we laid on the couch together and just, like, mourned together.

And so I thought we were, like, fully on the same page there. I also know that, like, when it comes to it was the summer, we do have to, you know, we have to film. You have to go do stuff. We can't just. We can't stay at home forever.

And so a lot of times it would be like, okay, well, I have to. I'm gonna go film this. I have, you know, boys night or this or that. And I was like, go do it. Because this is what we do.

Yeah, it's a good career. I. Maybe I'm not ready for that yet, but you go do it. Exactly. And so I definitely had no idea that, you know, he would betray me during that time because I thought he was also grieving.

When it came to my grandma, I was so concerned with my mom. So I flew home to my mom, and then I flew back, filmed the rest of the season, which was, like, one week left. And then I flew back again to Florida and was there for, like, two weeks. It was during the hurricane Ian and everything. And I just.

I just extended my stay beyond the service and everything. And I just. My concern was really just my family. When you were grieving your grandmother, isn't that when Tom and Raquel apparently were, like, at your house or something, having sex? Potentially.

Potentially? Potentially. I mean, he has maintained that that's not the case, but I don't trust what he says. Of course they facetimed me, the three of them. They facetimed me that next morning, like, before any filming or whatever.

So I was already aware that she had stayed the night because it was like, hey, good morning. Yeah, I stayed the night. It was just no big deal. Is that one of the most painful things for you, aside from the actual fact that they were having an affair, the casualness of just like, hey, girl, we're gonna facetime you together. And they're your best friends, so you're like, hey, guys.

Alex Cooper
And they literally just fucked. Mm hmm. It's the duplicitousness. It's like the. It's the backstabbingess.

Ariana Madix
It's like less about, like an affair. You know what I'm saying? Right. It's so layered and it's just really bizarre as well. Like, it's just like, I can't wrap my head around doing that.

Alex Cooper
It's really twisted and sick. It is, actually.

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Tom claimed he tried to break up with you multiple times. And your response would be, I'm not gonna let you leave. You're gonna have to force me that. There was only one. Okay, so with tried, he's talking about those conversations that we filmed.

Ariana Madix
So the one on the brown and white and then the. I don't know if that looked like an attempt to break up to you. It didn't look like it to me. And then there was another scene that didn't make it to air that was pretty much along the same lines. And that was where we, like, decided we were actually gonna go to couples therapy or whatever.

That doesn't. That's not an attempt. And then that was in September so then we had literally all the way up until Valentine's Day. I'm like, January? No, Valentine's Day is in February, right?

So I'm like, what day is Valentine's Day? Where are we? Valentine's Day. He got me flowers. We went to Schwartz and Sandy's.

He pulled out a bottle of wine from our first trip we ever took together. So, obviously, also, after we had celebrated our nine year anniversary at Musso and Frank's on January 1, like, full. You know, like, we. We went out, we had our anniversary dinner. Happy anniversary.

Like, great night, right? Like, we. We were having sex in January, like, multiple times. So, like, so to. Also.

Alex Cooper
To confirm to everyone that's not following all this drama, it's like, tom really honed in being, like, I was really trying to break up with her. Like, but you're, like, sleeping in my bed and buy me flowers, and we're going on an anniversary dinner and, like, yeah. Going to couples therapy and all of that. So the Valentine's Day, right. That he has referenced.

Ariana Madix
Yeah, again, got me flowers. We went to Schwartz and Sandy's for dinner, brought a super special bottle of wine that was special to us. I got dressed up. I put, like, little hearts on my face. He was like, you look so cute.

We went out for drinks. Later, Rachel showed up, as did a few of our other friends. And then we went home, and we were. Started kissing, and he was like, I have to stop you. And then that's when he.

We had this breakup conversation. Then at the end of that conversation, that was hours long, and the end of that conversation was, all right, well, let's continue this conversation. You know, when he was saying things in that conversation, like, I think I'm having a midlife crisis. Like, and I'm like, absolutely. And I said, if we break up, I'm probably going to quit the show.

I will probably leave Los Angeles. I will probably deactivate my instagram. And he found that to be, like, very offensive. He was saying, like, I don't know. Like, I was never saying that I was going to kill myself.

I was saying that my life. This life will be over for me because I will go do something else. I've been fantasizing about moving to, like, the french countryside since I was fucking child. And, like, honestly, to be fair, like, in the conversation, it's quite tearful. It was definitely not, like, a positive conversation.

Alex Cooper
Right. But I'm not talking about physically harming myself. And given the fact that we had that conversation over many, many, many hours, he knows that that's not what I was saying. It's not just, like, one comment, and then we stopped talking. So the fact that I feel like so many things that I've said, said not just in confidence, it's just me and him.

Ariana Madix
Like, we could sit here and war if words all we want. It's my word against his word. Right? Okay, that's fair. But at the same time, it's like knowing me and knowing the conversation and knowing the conversations we had in the days after that where you were still sleeping in my bed and we were still going to concert.

We went to a concert on February 19, and there's videos that he has of me, like, dancing in the living room and, you know, so it's like, okay, so why are you sleeping in the bed? Why are we continuing to hang out? Why do we have any sort of relationship if to you now you're gonna go on a podcast and say, ariana knew we were broken up. It's just like, in my opinion, I was like, you know what? I feel great about us having this open.

It was really a rough conversation. It ended with, let's keep talking about this. The next couple of days. We had more conversations. Um, I said, you are going to have to.

If you think this is over, you will have to be the one to end it. Because I'm committed. I'm actually thinking that this is, like, the potential for us to, like, be even to be great, because we're talking about stuff now that we haven't talked about yet. Like, we've never really gotten this. This far down this road before.

So, yes, if you want it to be, if this is over to you, like, you are gonna have to, like, you have to do this. You're gonna have to leave. Like, that's not crazy. It's like a. Like, not all.

I don't. We don't have to mutually agree upon the breakup. You know what I'm saying? Like, not only is it not crazy, Ariana, that was gonna be my next question. Like, I think the whole world watching it.

Alex Cooper
When Tom looked at Sheena and was like, I can't break up with her because she's threatened to kill herself. First of all, my problem with that, even if you had said that, which I appreciate you clarifying, but again, you didn't need to, because it's, like, number one, that's a huge fucking allegation to make about someone's mental health and to just casually say on a show when that's not the truth or it was the truth. Shut the fuck up. I have dealt with suicidal ideation before, and I have been in very, very deep, dark places before. So to then be flippant about it as if that's also something about me that makes me, like, deserve to be treated poorly is pretty awful, I think.

I couldn't agree more. I also am, like, when you saw that clip, how did you feel? I mean, it made me angry, obviously. And then what Sheena said was, like, such a great thing. Like, even if that was exactly word for word what I had said, which.

Ariana Madix
No, but if it was, why did you do absolutely nothing to help at all? Like, why didn't you call my mom, my brother, my friends? Right. Instead, you fucked my best friend. Right.

Alex Cooper
Tom knows. You have shared that you have struggled with your mental health. I have, yes. He has clearly been next to you while you're going through things and purported. To be my supporter and my partner in that.

Why, if you were gonna break up, why do you think you would leave everything and move? Like, do you still? Well, now, you did break up. You're not gonna do that, right? Are we going to the french countryside?

Ariana Madix
Like, where are we going? Where are we going? Where are we going? I'm down. But, like, when you said that to him, you really were like, I'm out.

Because I didn't want to do. I didn't want to do all of this on my own or without him. And I didn't want to, like, just kind of, like, be like, all right, I guess I'll move into an apartment in Studio City. And, you know, I just was like, that's not what I want. And I was like, if this is gonna change my life dramatically, not being in that relationship, then I want to change it dramatically.

Alex Cooper
I get what you're saying. It's like, I also appreciate and I think a lot of people can relate to this randomly. Sometimes when you have the worst fights of your life with your partner, it does feel like you can see the light at the end of the tunnel because you're like, we have never been this candid. We have not spoken in this way. So almost, it allows for a dialogue where you're like, weirdly, we went backwards to kind of go forward.

Ariana Madix
We're having literally where I was at. I was literally where I was at because I'm also thinking to myself, a nine year relationship is not a relationship that ends on a. With a drunken Valentine's day. But by the way, we were wasted when we got home that night. So I'm like, that's.

You don't just have one wasted conversation. And end a nine year relationship. Right. So. Right.

But to him, he was clearly and obviously in that conversation, there was nothing brought up about him having affair with anyone. Right. So it's almost like the whole thing. The whole thing was nonsense. And I remember asking, I was like, why did you get me flowers if you were like, I'm going to break up with her?

And he was like, well, I really. I wanted to get you flowers. You just. I was like, oh, my God. He really.

Alex Cooper
It really feels like he really wanted to have both. I think so. I think he was very committed to the double life. I agree. Cause do you actually believe he was gonna end it before the reunion?

Ariana Madix
I don't know. Honestly, it's, like, hard to know. I do think that I've seen. I've seen some things. I've learned some things even after.

Alex Cooper
Come on, give us the tea. One of those things is a text message from Rachel to Tom saying, I just talked to a mutual friend. I won't name them. And they said that you should be honest with Ariana. Maybe not so much about all the details, like sleeping in the house together, but that she deserves to know about this.

Ariana Madix
And then it's like, I love you. You got this.

Alex Cooper
So kind, just so, so generous. So I think it was only in that last little bit there, right before I found out that it was even the I. That it was being workshopped. Right? That's when, like, when I saw that they were like, we were gonna do it before the reunion because we could never sit in front of her and let her defend.

I'm like, bro, that's what you've been doing. You've been sitting in front of her and letting her defend you and Raquel and everyone. It's like, why would the reunion be any fucking different, right? Oh, my God. I hate this shit.

Okay. Throughout this season, there were numerous comments from castmates about the dynamic of your guys relationship. Again, before the affair came out in January, you had to set the record straight that you and tom were not in an open relationship. Why do you now, with all the information, why do you think that rumor started? Honestly, I think it came from him.

Ariana Madix
I think that. Which it's been denied, I'll say that. But I think that. So it came out that day that all. Everyone was at my house that you see on the show that.

I mean, obviously these conversations that are two minutes on the show are like 2 hours plus. And sometimes there are things that are said that are way worse than what is on. We're like, bravo. Give it to us. What the fuck?

Like, his and I, my. Our conversation, and there were things that were way worse. And then in that conversation with all my friends, I think it was Sheena was like, um, so one of our friends, back when this stuff started coming out and rumors were rumbling, it was apparently Rachel told a mutual friend that she thought me and Tom were in an open relationship because apparently he told her that at one point. And then when that got brought up, he was like, absolutely not. I never said that.

And I was like, well, you should probably take that up with your little fucking girlfriend because she's the one who told that to someone else. And you know what she said to that someone else? She said, even if that, she's like, I mean, I don't know if that's true, but I would way rather hook up with Ariana than Tom. And I think she said that because she was talking to a guy and she thought it was, like, hot, hot to be, like, to say that. And so when Tom was like, I never said that.

But I'm like, well, don't ask me. I'm not the one that's information that's being brought to me that she apparently. Said Zachary, weirdly, I do think in a strange way that is helpful to know because that narrative now, knowing what we know, it's like that didn't get put out into the world by, like, no happened chance. Like, it's not like everyone's like Sheena and Brock are in and open. Like, you know what I mean?

Alex Cooper
It's like now knowing there's like a. Kernel of something that was planted somewhere that turned into something. Right. Like someone fucking knew it was an open relationship, but it was one fucking side. There's one person.

Ariana Madix
Yeah. Because the other person's like, right. Absolutely not. Like, I would have loved to have known. I would have been like, let me know so I can.

Alex Cooper
Like, you would have loved to known, like, many times earlier. So you're like, oh, let me get on the same. Same page. You're fucking Raquel. Got it.

I'm out. Right. He was operating telling people that probably so that it wouldn't get back to you because it's like people. Oh, Bill. Then they must have some sort of trust, some rule.

Ariana Madix
And so I'm not going to bring it up to her. I mean, that sounds fairly likely to. Absolutely. Katie at one point said something along the lines of, Ariana doesn't care. She just cares when people talk about it and she doesn't want to look dumb comments like, that, insinuating you and Tom had a different relationship and understanding off camera than on camera.

Alex Cooper
And those comments were pretty heavy throughout the season of, like, they've got this thing on the side that no one talks about. I remember Lala went on a podcast and was like, they are the most different off camera. Like, how does that sit with you? I mean, to be honest, and I do love Katie and I do love Lala, but those were people who were not really in our inner circle, like, whatsoever for the last many years. And I don't think anyone within our inner circle would ever say anything like that.

Ariana Madix
If you were to interview Logan or Brad or even Sheena, they would not say that. And those are people that we spent a lot of time together with, went on trips with things like that. So, I mean, I get to them. Maybe they think that that's fine, but they were not in our inner circle. Prior to the scandal, there had been other rumors of tom cheating with other women, and it was disclosed in the final finale that you did know about one of them in Miami.

Alex Cooper
You guys weren't official. You talked about that. Now, knowing who Tom really is, how many people do you think? I don't know. There was one years and years ago that I got a DM that was like, tom hooked up with my friend in San Diego, and I was like.

Ariana Madix
And I brought it up over and over and over and over again because I was like, I'm drilling, I'm drawing, and I. And it was like, no, absolutely not. No, no. Like, you know what I mean? It was, like, really just a no that now I'm like, no, I think that was a yes.

And then there's specifically the one that he said, oh, yeah, there was one other time. I'm, like, 99.9% sure I know exactly who that is also. Yeah, but that being said, how many? Like, I I don't know. Because it's like, I don't know there.

Because I feel like he was so. I mean, there was stuff that he was getting away with that I learned out about, like, within the last month. Like what? Like, bringing Rachel home to St. Louis.

Alex Cooper
When did he do that? Apparently more than once. While you were dating? Yeah. Yeah.

So his family knew. It's hard to say like, what exactly they knew or when they knew. I think they. At one point, they knew, but they were, like, definitely not condoning. And he wasn't.

Ariana Madix
He was, like, putting her up in, like, a hotel.

Alex Cooper
Like, how diabolical. To bring your side chick to your home. Like. Mm hmm. Like, and were they not afraid of paparazzi?

Like, what? I guess. I mean, it's St. Louis. I don't know.

Ariana Madix
I don't know. They're not there. But you know what? That being said, there were some rumblings even before I knew if. Whether or not that was true.

There were rumblings of that on the Internet, so definitely somebody had seen something. Okay. What do you think about the Billy Lee situation? I do not think that anything happened there. You don't?

I don't, and I. The reason I don't is because, I mean, Billy Lee. Okay. I understand that this sounds crazy, because Raquel was someone I loved and trust. You know what I'm saying?

Alex Cooper
Right. You're like. But. But I do really. I trust that Billie Lee would not do that.

Have you asked? She has. We've talked about it. Okay. Okay.

Ariana Madix
Based on people saying things online, she's been. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Has anyone reached out to you since to be like, I also hooked up with him?

Um. They have not. Okay. I haven't had anyone do that. Okay.

Alex Cooper
That's good for your mental health. Or are they scared? Are they scared you'll be, like, on caller daddy? Like, yup. Britney from fucking Australia said that.

Ariana Madix
Like, no, dude, honestly, I would not. If a girl. If any women did do that. Yeah. You're not.

I would not put them on blast, because honestly, at the end of the day, as much as I think that they suck for doing that because they knew we were together, it's the responsibility, in my opinion, the person in a relationship. I also think, weirdly now, knowing the drama of, like, the open relationship rumor, he may have been putting out what I've always said, like, men, when they want to put their penis in something, they will say, like, a married man will be like, no, we're in the middle of a divorce. Later, he goes home to his wife. Like, she. Sadly, she passed.

Like, she passed away. Like, literally, like, she's not here. Like, he. We don't even know how he's. It's already so diabolical, how crazy it's gotten that it wouldn't be surprising if every room he walked into in order to get a girl.

Alex Cooper
Like, it was like, we're on a break, or we're like, it. Sure. It's. It's. I fucking hate men.

Okay. Um. Does being completely honest with yourself. Mm hmm. Do you think you ever subconsciously turned a blind eye?

Ariana Madix
Yes. Yeah. But I think I was given a lot of assistance in doing that because I would bring things up and I would be shot down and. Or again with the. Oh, let me see your phone.

I think that I was given a lot of assistance in that. You know what I mean? Like. And he even said on the show, like, well, she didn't follow me. It's like, how much effort should I be putting forth in a relationship?

Should I be stalking my partner in order to know for sure, like, what they're doing? Like, I get what you're saying. And I think also to women listening, like, we talked about you going through his phone, and there are no texts, so it's like, at what point you have to just trust your partner, because then you start to actually feel crazy of, like, am I being just, like, so untrusting? Like. And you're like, am I just, like, a fucking bitch?

Because now I'm being, you know, that person that's just so, like, so what, their mom. Now that's gonna be like every time they come home, am I gonna be like, all right, let me see your phone. You know, like, that whole thing. And it's like. And then you start to feel like the psycho, and they become the more normal one that's like, you're so crazy.

Alex Cooper
Like, well. And then they get to use that against you later on. So it's like you're either not psycho enough to, like, not figure it out. Uh huh. Or you're so.

Ariana Madix
You're too psycho. And they're like, they know how to hide that. Now I'm gonna break. Exactly. They're like, you're so crazy.

Alex Cooper
Here's my phone. Look. And it's like, well, then open the iPad. If he didn't delete those messages, did. Were his messages connected to his iPad?

Ariana Madix
No. Oh, you're so. And you know why? Because at one point, they were. And it was just like, we just get so many, and it would just be dinging, ding, ding.

So it was like, we gotta turn that off. This was years and years ago. It was just like the amount. I know. But the find my iPhone app, I, you know, could see where the devices all were located, and they were always located somewhere that they should be.

The band rehearsal space or Schwartz's apartment. How much of the affair do you think happened at Schwartz's house? I think more than Schwartz is willing to let on. Cause the recording was at Schwartz's, and he apparently felt real comfortable there. Yeah.

In that sad, sad apartment. In that sad, sad location. Yeah. That's fucking gross. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
Do you think you kind of touched on this a little bit earlier? But do you think you were so quick to defend Tom? Not just about this. Like, through seasons, you've always had his back. You've always been ride or die.

And I think so many people, including myself, respected you for always being like, I'm going to stand by my fucking partner. But do you think that you would be so quick to defend him so that people wouldn't think, think less of him or so that people wouldn't think less of you for being with him? Both. Yeah, definitely both. Because I didn't want people.

Ariana Madix
I always saw a side of him that I felt like wasn't apparent on the show or on social media or whatever. I always felt like I saw a side of him that was like the home side. And so I always felt like if people could just see that part of him, they would, like, they would get it, you know? And then in turn, yeah, I mean, for people to think less of me, I mean, I don't, I don't want them to be like, oh, this girl sucks at picking guys a date. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
Although, I mean, no, we're leveling up, Ariana. Okay. Like, it's getting better. I've seen it's gotten a lot better. When you look back on your time together, are you able to see any good?

Or has what he's done completely tainted him? And as the human he is.

Ariana Madix
I don't think I'm there yet. Although some of these edits on TikTok that come on my for you page that have like, ceilings, that ceiling song is playing and it's like, cute clips of. I'm like, like, I can't because I feel like. I mean, in that regard, I'm like, oh, that's maybe almost getting me there. But I feel like.

I mean, he even said, oh, because I've done this, then that negates everything else. And I was kind of like, I mean, it kind of does. I mean, it does. I hate to say it, but when you have an affair, you cheat like that. I do think it does make it very hard for me to look at their relationship with any level of nostalgia or maybe years from now.

Alex Cooper
But, yeah, it's also, again, the level of truly lying and actually having what's seemingly no remorse almost between the two of them, you can't help but wonder. And I think the whole world was like, what else has this motherfucker done over these nine years? It's like, this is the one we know about. And then, oh, there was one in Miami, and then there was one in San Diego. It's like, what else?

Cause he's good at fucking keeping it close to the chest. And he has no fucking issue lying to your face. No. So what else was there? Like, I get what you're saying.

It's like, that's. That's difficult. Yeah, that's difficult. And it also makes it feel like you look back on. On the relationship at times that you did think that were good, that were happy memories, and you think, like, well, did.

Ariana Madix
They didn't really like me or respect me during those times, right. Because. I don't know. What do you miss about the relationship? I would say inside jokes, being goofballs together, the fun, funny, just stupid stuff.

Alex Cooper
That, like, comfortability of, like, you, like, the same language. Yeah. Like, we know each other.

There's a deleted clip from vanderpump of you, tom and Raquel in a hot tub in Mexico, and you say, it looks like we're in a throuple that feels like a foreshadowing. Now, knowing what we know, what specific moments did you have to look back on? Or you look back on now that you're like, whoa. Something so fucking shady was going on in that exact moment. And I.

I didn't know. I didn't know that one in particular. That's the big. He's, like, fingering her in the hot tub. Like, don't.

Ariana Madix
Like, this is hilarious, you guys. Like, I'm so drunk. I'm like, this is so funny. And by the way, his whole thing about, like, skinny dipping and hang gliding, I went hang gliding, and I clearly went skinny dipping. Like, I don't know what the hell you're fucking talking about.

Anyways, there's that. There were times where we would have, like, a bunch of people over in our house, and we have a guest bedroom, and that guest bedroom gets used a lot by a lot of our different friends, and her being one of them. And we would be like, we would have friends who'd be like, bring over the dogs. So, like, my brother would come and bring his dogs, and our friend Jessie Montana would come and bring indio, which is, like, my dog's best friend. And Rachel would bring Graham over, who is honestly a terrorist.

He bit me before. Like, mother out there. He's not a well trained dog. He's kind of a little jerk. But we would let it go because we're like, that's our friend's dog.

Like, maybe he'll. And she would always purport it to be like, oh, it's because, like, maybe, like, when her and James had him together, that maybe, like, it was the way he was raised as a puppy. And I'm almost like, clearly James was not the problem. Like, I try to, like, move the food bowl, and he will try to bite me. Like, he's crazy.

He's very cute, but crazy. It's not his fault. Not his fault, right. The owner's fault. Find your dog.

Yeah. Anyways, we would have people that would come over, stay in the guest room, stay on our couches. Like, it's a very normal thing. And sometimes I'd be like, all right, well, it's like two. I want to go to bed.

Can we, like, turn the music off or can we? And my poor neighbor has so many times been like, hey. Like. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm not even down there anymore.

I have to, like, go down there and be the person that's like, can you please? And it just was, like, so annoying. And there were times where I would, like, go up to bed or whatever because it's late and I have a life and a career and responsibilities and, you know, 28 year old failed pageant queens don't. And so they'd be able to stay up super late and hang and have no reason to get up the next morning. And that's fine if you weren't fucking my boyfriend also at the same time, and there were times like that where if I could go back and be like, why are, like, what's going on?

You know? Right. Things like that. Do you think they ever had sex while you were upstairs? Yes, I do.

I think they had sex in my guest room while I was sleeping in my own bed that he and I went to bed in together. And then he left the bed and went to the guest room and fucked her. Yes, I believe that.

Alex Cooper
God bless you, God. God bless you, Ariana, that's like, trust issues. Like how, like, fuck. Fuck him. Cause how do you even begin to, like, trust someone after, like, that level of, like, nine years with someone and they're that fucking comfortable in the home that you co own?

Ariana Madix
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, like, when people say Tom's house, I'm like, excuse me, it's my house. Uh huh. We own that house equally.

So I don't ever want to hear that. In one episode, you said, raquel is kind, sweet, and loyal and has just been a delight since the day I met her. How would you describe her now? Oh, my God. Lost.

Lost, lost. I mean, I don't know her. Yeah, I realize now I never knew her, but I certainly don't know her now. And we don't. I don't know anyone who does know her.

And so it's hard to say. But based on what I've seen lost and empty and just potentially, I don't know. Yeah, I think a lot of hard. To say because it's like, I don't really know what's going on. Some of the behaviors has at times seemed sociopathic, but at the same time, I'm not really sure, like, what is the real deal.

Alex Cooper
Yeah, it just sucks that you were kind of in the middle of something that someone that has clearly no remorse was involved in the destruction of also your relationship. Sure. And I at the time was like, I kept telling her, like, it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to, like, fuck, you were. So nice to her.

Ariana, do Raquel and Tom make sense together to you? No. No. I mean, unless he has changed everything that he has ever said that he's looking for in someone, then no. How did you feel watching them on screen together in Raquel's apartment?

Like, that was the first time we all kind of see them able to romantically interact with her. Like, oh, my gosh, this is so weird. We can't kiss on camera together. Like, how did it feel watching your partner of nine years just literally the day before? I think it was.

Look at you being like, I'm going to her place. Yeah, I'm going, like, also just so shameful. Oh, and by the way, after he filmed that scene with her, he came back to my house. Right. And it was essentially, I mean, you saw how many films flowers were there.

Ariana Madix
So I. There were probably, like 15 people there. I still had not slept, still not eaten. My friend Janet came, but got all kinds of. She was making french onion soup to, like, Trek says, my favorite.

And that's my favorite, too. So she's making french onion soup, our friends and all brought over, like, wine. And we were just watching drag race and every. It was. It was essentially a funeral.

Right. Because these were all also people who were friends with him and were friends with her. And they were like, we've lost these friends because we cannot, like, in good conscience, there's no. There's nothing they. We've lost them as well, because we don't want to.

There's no way I can imagine if he's willing to do that to me. Is he willing to do to you? Exactly. Diabolical, I can understand. And so he walked in the house after filming that scene, yelled at everybody, this is his house, too.

He referred to it as a party that I was having a party. I went to bed. It was, like, 09:00 p.m. I finally fell asleep on the couch. He went upstairs.

Kristen and another one of our mutual friends, Courtney, had to be like, you should probably go, like, why are you here? And then eventually, he left, and there were paparazzi shots of him going back to her apartment after. So he came back to the house, yelled at everybody to, like, get out of his house, and blah, blah, blah. And then we find out later on he was definitely, like, tuning into, like, the cameras in the house. Like, watch.

Like, we were doing literally nothing. You called a party. We were having a funeral. Thank you. Exactly.

Alex Cooper
You're done. Bye. So. But that scene was very cringe on so many levels, and I think it was that scene and that conversation that I watched that made me. When you asked me, like, did they make sense to you?

Ariana Madix
I was like, no. It was awkward. Yeah. The whole thing of her being like, I love you. And he was like, no.

Alex Cooper
I said, they love you, but I love you too. Like, how did you also feel knowing that they said to each other that they love each other? I mean, I kind of knew that before watching. I mean, I knew that before watching it. That was, like, where they're at.

Ariana Madix
Yeah, but it was cringe. Do you think Tom misses you? Um, yeah, I do. Do you know that, like, has anything been said? No, you just know.

I just feel like, as someone that he would go to for advice on mostly everything up until, like, that moment or. I just think that there's no way that he doesn't because he's been making a lot of, like, very questionable decisions over the last two months, and he doesn't have that, like, sounding board or that advisor anymore. What is the extent of an apology that you've received from each of them at this point? Hers was like, a nothing. Hers was a text message that was very, like.

I just don't know what to say except that I'm sorry. Like, that was it. That was that day. That was March 3 that I got that one. That was that night.

I went to a concert to see Tovlo. My friends were like, let's get you out of the house, right? Go just do something fun, and then we'll go back, and we'll heal. But. And then at the reunion, it was very sub par.

It was like a rehearsal speech, and I was just like, shut the fuck up. Right. It's like someone told you to say these exact lines like, nothing is inside here. Yeah. Nothing had clicked.

I didn't feel like it was genuine. Also, that kind of text message, you're like, that is the kind of text messages you send when like, you were a bitch the night before because we were drunk and you said some things. You're like, I'm really sorry, I don't know what to say, I'm embarrassed. Like, you had an almost year affair with my boyfriend. Like, maybe you should send multiple pages of an explanation and like, okay, and what about Tom?

Well, obviously you saw how, well I told you how that night went. The next day, not much better. And then that scene that you saw, which was 2 hours and there was a lot of like way worse things that he said. Like what? Like, what is he saying?

Like, at one point he was like, oh, well, I'll keep taking care of the house. Like I always do. What is his obsession with like the batteries and the fucking toilet paper? He's like, I take care of this house. Like, yeah, like, right?

She goes in, gets that. Like he says, hey, we need this. And she goes and gets in. Like, it's like, no, I spending over backwards. I literally saw a TikTok of a girl being like, how did not get cheated on 101 and she's stocking the house with like batteries and toilet paper.

Alex Cooper
Like, if only Ariana had stocked the toilet paper. Maybe like he acted as if, like that was a huge point of contention and like, why he cheated. He's like, she would never stalk the house. Like, Ariana didn't do these things. And you're like, bro, I noticed.

Ariana Madix
Yeah, like over the last two months I've noticed. Like there was one day I was doing, I think I was shooting spawn con like downstairs at one point and all of a sudden he's like asses assistant. Like, does she know where the ladder is? And it was by me. So she brought it.

He's like, listen to change the filter on the air conditioner. I'm like, what? You wouldn't do that now. Cuz you, it's like now you have this thing, you have to like uphold that. You like, right?

All these things. I am the man of the house. It's like chill. Yeah, so it's so cringe. Um, would you go back and change anything you did?

Honestly, I want to say no because I feel like, listen, I've seen people online be like, she wasn't perfect. Well, obviously who is person. She's not innocent. Okay? I don't have to be.

I was very much a committed partner in this relationship. False. What is it? Warts and all. I was very much committed and I feel like, I was doing my absolute best as a partner, but I don't think I would do anything differently just because I feel like all I can do is my best.

And whether my best was good enough or not for anyone, that's what it was. And I feel like, yeah, I could have been less trusting, I could have been more paranoid, or I could have been. I could have followed or I could have bought pens and batteries or whatever. But ultimately, I think that if I go back and try to, like, change all the things that I would have. Could have, shoulda.

I mean, I would never stop. So do you think that, had you not caught him, do you think you guys would still be together?

It's hard to say in this moment, because, you know, there was this. There was a plan still together, I almost think. No. Given that I know about this plan. Now, can you explain what the plan was to people?

The plan was, I think, to. And the relationship under the guise of, like, that Valentine's Day conversation, for that to eventually stick. Eventually. That would be the. That was the end game, to break up with me without any mention of any sort of affair or cheating or anything, whether that was pre reunion or not or pre going to film winter house or not.

And then, you know, go about whatever, and then they would just start dating. Yep. But the narrative that he was the victim in our relationship or that I was just. I just suck. So.

Would have already been planted. I think that was part of, like, a. There was a master plan. Yeah. It's a little wild to see, like, how much he was working it towards the end there.

Alex Cooper
Like, you guys weren't really in this season that much. And then to watch, like, halfway through, or even a little bit farther than halfway through, he just is coming out of the woodwork, complaining to Tom, oh, my gosh. We're not connecting. We don't have sex. I don't know.

Like, it is pretty diabolical now that you watch it of, like, oh, this was a whole plan. Set the stage. I'm not happy. We don't have. We don't connect, and then end it.

And then all he thought was gonna work perfectly. And thank fucking God it didn't, because it's disgusting. I know. I'm actually, like, there was at one point, I think it's him or Schwartz had said to me at one point, like, I'm so sorry that you found out this way. And I was like, I'm so glad that I found out this way, because if I had found out the way that y'all had planned?

Ariana Madix
Are you kidding? It would have been. I would have been just a cog in the machine of this whole narrative, this whole thing. Do you ever think back to that night with the phone and you're like, thank God. Yeah.

And I also think, what the. What was it? It felt like a beam. Like, I hate to say a lightning ball. No, literally.

But it really, truly felt like a lightning bolt of do this right now. And it's like. I don't know. That's why I say, like, it felt like some sort of divine intervention, because, like. And I'm.

And I'm not. Like, I don't really believe in God. I don't. Like, I don't. I'm not a religious person, but any means.

There is something that just went, like, something went off. And it's so weird because I don't know how else to describe it, because, like, so many other times I would have been. I could have. He even asked me that. He was like, why didn't you go through my phone, you know, when I was sleeping or whatever?

And I'm like. Cause I just didn't ever want to do that and be sneaky like that. Like, I don't want to be sneaky. And that makes me feel sneaky. Mm hmm.

Alex Cooper
But, yeah, thank God a woman's intuition is never wrong. What have you now uncovered that repulses you about this whole situation? The flying her to different places? I know that she was that watch what happens live appearance where Schwartz was covering his mouth and acting all weird. Yeah.

Ariana Madix
It's because she was in the hotel room. She was there in New York. I know for a fact he was. So he was using, like, other people's credit cards and things to, like, like, basically making them pay for things and then venmo ing them later. So that, like, it was just really messed.

And you know what? Honestly, it makes me really upset, because I feel like he put people in a position that they felt like they didn't know what to do. And I feel bad because I feel like it that just. I can only imagine how heavy, like, how much that weighed on him. Like, this was a whole fucking operation that he started to get running where it's, like, the credit card here, have someone book her in the hood.

Alex Cooper
Like, it was like, who knows how much farther it would have gone. Sure. And having the band and the touring and stuff like that, I feel like, was a very easy way to be. Like, well, I have to be out of town. And then she could then be flown to wherever that show was.

Ariana Madix
And I would have no idea. Because he's coming home exactly when he's supposed to come home. Right. Of course. He's out late.

He's playing a show. Like, there's nothing about it. Like, he was very good with that. It does start to make you wonder, is this band just a whole cover for this affair? Cause, like, objectively, I know you were in love, Ariana, but, like, it's not great.

Alex Cooper
The band's not great. I feel like it's gotten. Well, wait, has it gotten worse? Did you just open your eyes or did I not? Can you now just, like, unbiasedly look at it and be like that?

Those were love goggles. Yeah. And now we flicked them off, and you're like, hi. Don't need to watch that anymore. Do you know if there was a night ever that you had sex with Tom the same day he had sex with Raquel?

Ariana Madix
I don't know that. I don't know that. Oh, that would be. Yeah. Extra therapy sessions for that week.

Yeah. I would love to know. Would you? Well, I've already. I've already had my pan.

I'm good. Right? So now it would just be like, oh, of course. Like an Lol moment. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
Right. We've already gone through the worst now. Like, just, like, the details just become like, oh, that's. But then you see, like, sometimes it makes me laugh, because at this point, it's like, it is. So again, you ask that question, and I'm like, I don't think maybe.

Ariana Madix
So it seems like. Right, right. I don't know. The reunion airs this week. How did you feel going into the reunion, and how did you feel walking out of it?

I felt going into it like, it had only been like, what was it? Okay. March 1. We filmed the reunion March 23. It had already felt as though.

It felt like there was like a wall, like a divider had been built somehow between the current, the past, and the present. And that feels so weird. And maybe that is again, like, a compartmentalizing coping mechanism. But it also felt as though going into it, we were all on the same page, like, and that's never happened. So that I felt gave not just me, but Sheena, Lala, Katie, James, we all had this vote of confidence amongst each other, and we all knew that we were all on the same page with that.

And so it felt like a boost of confidence in that way of just knowing, like, I don't have to sit here and question whether or not I'm right or not wrong or if Lala's right. Or wrong. Or if James or Sheena or Katie is right or wrong, we know and we feel that, like, deep in our gut and that. Right, that felt good. It was weird.

I mean, honestly, that. That three weeks was, like, really fucking weird. And so to go into a reunion and I'm a not sitting, sitting next to him, but I'm also not, like he would say stuff and I would be like. Because normally I would be like, well, what he's trying to say. Cuz he'd always almost, like, needed a translator at times because he would have an opinion that we had.

We had talked about things, you know, at home. And so I understood where he was coming from or like, what he was trying to get at. But, like, then he would voice it and no one else could get it. So I would be like, okay, so what do you really. This is what we're.

What do you mean? And so. So to be there and sync yourself. Not my job. What was it like sitting and having to listen to Raquelle?

Painful and not painful in the sense of, like, she hurt my feelings. Painful in a sense of, like, I really did not feel like she was connected to the moment or reality at all. I really feel like again then, March 23, that the two of them, both of them somehow, maybe it was like they were feeding it to each other because I don't know who else would be. They thought, people are just mad. Yeah, I'm a little mad at you, and, like, we'll be fine.

Like, I think that's, like, where both of their minds were at. And so the. The gravity of what they had done or were doing or whatever, it was just not hitting at all. He was still. I mean, look, I think she just.

I don't know. And I told her, I was like. I mean, I don't know why you're sorry now. You thought you were hot shit when you were doing it, right? You thought like, are you kidding?

Alex Cooper
Uh huh. So. How would you describe your emotions during the reunion? I was angry at times. I was sad.

Ariana Madix
But I honestly think that the biggest thing that I felt, that there was, like, a question that was asked towards the end that I was just, like, I was so grateful for my friends, both the friends that were there that day and otherwise. And I honestly, a lot of it felt numb in a way because it felt like, as angry as I was, it was almost difficult to connect to what. Once you go angry, it's very hard to, like, come back from that. And, yeah, that's where I was, I think. Was there anything you went into the reunion with.

Alex Cooper
Of, like, I'm making this up. Like, I'm not gonna look her in the eyes, or I'm gonna make sure that I don't look him in the eyes. No, literally, I was like, I'm not looking at either of them. I will communicate to Andy or Talisa if I have to look in that way. Otherwise, I will speak to the wall.

Ariana Madix
Emptiness, the soundstage. Was that, like, you're. Literally. That was me. Like, I was like, I'm not looking at either of them.

And then eventually, a couple times, I did, but, I mean, that was. You were like, it. Was that your main thought going in? Yeah, like. Like, I will not speak to them.

I will speak. Like, I will answer. Right? But I'm not. We're not gonna.

Alex Cooper
You don't deserve my. I get it.

Did you feel like you were able to get closure from the reunion? Yeah, I honestly felt like I had closure before that, before the reunion. And then at the reunion, I mean, I said what I felt like saying in the moment, but I honestly felt as though everything that happened, I think I even said it, but it didn't make it to air. But I was just, like, this happening, I mean, you made it really easy for me to just not give a shit about you. Like, breakups are hard.

Ariana Madix
You miss the person. You know, you think, what could I have done? What could they have done? Are we gonna get back together? You know, you have all these things, right, when you go through a breakup, but when something like this happens, you're like, bye.

Like, there's literally nothing about that person, right? Even if I missed him, like, in the first few days, like, even that feeling of missing him, that's not who. Whoever that is, is not that person. So I feel like that's also a good bit of advice for people listening that maybe be going through something similar of, like, sometimes, weirdly, the more that the person hurts you in terms of how they decide to betray you, you can find some type of hope of, like, that just made it so much easier to never look back. And that is even more hurtful to fucking person that fucked with you, because it's like, it would have been like if I kind of.

Alex Cooper
If you fucked up a little bit and we had a fight and then we did. Like, he closed that doors. You didn't even have to fucking. Oh, he slammed that door shut. And I almost think that that was why the.

Ariana Madix
The elaborate plan was what it was, is because then I would. Then I would want to get back together. Right? Of course I'd be sad or I would be, you know, struggling. No, it's.

Alex Cooper
Thank. But thank God. Thank God. Yeah. Was there anything specific that was really hurtful that he said to you that you kind of can't shake still?

Ariana Madix
I think it was the way that he weaponized any struggle I've ever had with my mental health that, to me, was the most hurtful.

Alex Cooper
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I know your group chat must be going off, like, no, we all are. Just, we haven't even. And I'm very, like. Cause I've talked to, like, our showrunners and stuff, and I'm like, I think I know, like, what the deal is, but I am, like, not entirely sure there's a couple. There's a couple things out there.

Raquel's pregnant. I I don't think so. Affair started during James and Raquel era, maybe, right. But, like, then that's, is that. That crazy?

Ariana Madix
Because what difference, really? Would that. Right. We all hate them. We still hate them.

Alex Cooper
K Lisa knew the whole time. I don't think so. I don't. I don't think so. I have.

Ariana Madix
She would have brought, here's why. Mm hmm. She would have brought that. She would have brought that up. Right.

Like I had very early on. Because, again, there's a lot of speculation of, like, things being staged and whatever. Right. This all happening after filming, just from a, just from a logistic production standpoint, not to mention the fact that, like, this is my real life and these are my real feelings, and this is something we're really going through. Right.

But for those naysayers, just from a production standpoint. Yeah. Something like this happening months and months afterward, not filming, and there's no cameras around, and they had to borrow a crew from housewives of Beverly Hills. Even film after that is a nightmare for production and for our show, because they want everything that's gonna happen. It's like, you want that to happen in real time while we're filming, of course.

Cause otherwise you lose it. It's gone. It's hearsay. Or it's this, you know, something happens off camera. That's, like, not ideal.

Alex Cooper
Right? So again, if Lisa knew, there's no way that's possible. I'm the last one I've written down, which I think is. I mean, this would be fucking awful. Raquel hooked up with Brock.

Ariana Madix
Oh, no, no, I don't think so. No, no, there's no way. What is something that could come out that would make you not want to go back to the show. I mean, anything that, like, makes me feel unsafe or for my dog to be unsafe and something like that. Anything safety wise would be.

I think the only thing that would make any of us be, like, we're not coming back to film. But, I mean, I can't do that. Like, what the fuck? I know. I guess.

I mean, I kind of have an idea. Do you want to tell us your theory. I'm like, okay. You'll tell me off camera like that. I really won't come back to film.

Alex Cooper
Yeah. Then you're literally kicked the fuck off and I get sued. So that'd be fun. Okay, but you think you have an idea. Yeah.

Is it as bad as everyone speculating? I don't think it's something like that crazy or that wild. It's just like, more drama. Yeah, I think so. But I don't know because again, like, you could.

Ariana Madix
I haven't seen it, so I don't. I get it. Okay, let's get like happy for 5 seconds. Okay. Yeah.

Alex Cooper
Okay. Because what I should. We have more roses? Yeah. Can we have a little bit?

Yeah, let's. Let's pour more. What I appreciate in you being really open today is like I said to you when you walked in, this is sadly really fucking relatable. I remember sitting on the bed in New York City and being like, he hasn't done anything. I just have the fucking feeling, the.

Ariana Madix
Divine I need to. And I looked him in the eyes, Ariana, and I said, I need you to open your iPad. And he's like, I'll give you my phone. I said, no, the iPad. Oh, my God.

So what was it on that? What was the. Fully having a sexting nude with his nutritionist. He was a professional athlete and he would show me his nutritionist all the time. Like, she recommended the bison, and I'm gonna eat the bison.

Because he's like, her advice is like, so great. He was trying to get her. He would talk about her to me. And I remember when he opened it, she was not the first person I went to because I was like, okay, but you know what's crazy? I didn't even need him to open it.

Alex Cooper
The minute I asked him and I put it down in front of him, I pulled it out from my back. I said, open it. He went ghost white. I didn't even need him to open it. I was like, oh.

Like, I knew. And then I saw it and I remember going into the bathroom throwing up. And I think we can talk about this a little bit. Which is. I wouldn't say it's like embarrassment, but there's like a level of for 5 seconds.

Because this is also the person you love. Yeah. Your love doesn't go away the minute you see it. You hate them. But, like, right?

Ariana Madix
Yeah. 5 seconds ago, I was in love with this person. You. There is a part of you that wants to be like, no, no, there's no way. Yeah.

Like, it's not real. It's not real, but it is. And it's like that gut punch. Yeah. And it's like, do you have any advice?

Alex Cooper
And I'll think, too, of, like, for someone sitting there that just found out that they were getting cheated on, like, how do you mentally wrap your brain around being in love with someone that you trusted and then the ultimate betrayal and trying to be like, I want to go have them hug me because they're usually the person that consoles me, but you also fucked me. And, like, I would be like, look. Maybe have that moment right now. Give yourself an hour to have that moment or that night, and then get away from them. Like.

Ariana Madix
Like, obviously, we're still in the same house, but we are most definitely in different rooms. We have, like, I know exactly, like, when he's coming back to the house, and I know to. To, like, I. We do not cross paths. That being said, like, as much as you can have that conversation, do what you need to do.

Get your ducks in a row and then get away from them. And don't. Don't allow them to, like, come back into your life, because, again, if it's somebody who's willing, who is capable or talented enough of being able to create those lies and stuff, they'll be. They'll be able to create something to pull you back in at some point. And then.

So you have to separate. You have to go. No contact. You're so right. And then also, if you go back, they're just gonna be smarter next time.

Yeah. And that is, I think, the worst of, like, there's gonna be so many things that are said to you, but I also believe, like, there's one thing. If someone comes to you and tells you, and it's like, I did this, I feel disgusting. I'm sorry. When you find it, when they're apologizing, they're sorry they got caught.

Oh, yeah, keep that. Are gonna apologize. Because I've had a lot of women that I've spoken to online since all of this have said my ex was the same way. He was angry. He was yelling at me.

He was pissed. And it's like. It's. Yeah, it's this. The house of cards has fallen, and they're angry about that.

They're not so much, like, remorseful or upset. It's not about how you feel. It's about the fact that all the effort that went into creating this to building that little house of cards got blown over so fast. And now what? And I fucking love how much you talk about your friends because I, and I also love how you talk about this distortion of reality.

Alex Cooper
Like, the great Esther Perel always talks about, like, when you get cheated on, your reality becomes so distorted and you are like, wobbling essentially. You can't see straight because you are the person I actually loved most and trusted the most in my life and you just ripped the rug out underneath me. You have to immediately surround yourself and I know you're embarrassed. Part of you also sometimes doesn't want to tell anyone because you're like, you're. Like, oh, my God, now I'm that person.

Ariana Madix
Or, you know, and then if you. Tell people, it's over, right? Once it's out, well, it's like they always say to, like, whenever, if you and your partner just get in, like, petty fights, like, don't tell your friends because in your. They always say that, right. But it's like, in this, if it's this big of a thing, you gotta do it.

You gotta do it. And you gotta surround yourself with your friends as quickly as possible. And then that way they can also hold you accountable and be like, absolutely fucking not. Yep. You are not allowed.

Like, this is not happening. And then also, if you are in a situation where you do have a gaslighter or manipulator and you have a friend over, you have someone sitting right there going, no, I heard what they said. I saw how they were. It's not just you because that was my big thing is it was like there was no one else there. And so I would question everything.

Yeah. And then my friends that were, you know, at the house, like, again, like, when he came back and was like, are you guys here? It's like, well, thank fucking God. See, I was like, so you guys saw that, right? Like, my anxiety is going through.

My God. But see, that's what it's been like. And, okay. Yes. So now we see the reality because otherwise, you know, and that's.

Alex Cooper
Again, I just think it's so important to talk through this because when you're in it, it almost becomes impossible to see straight. Yeah. And you have to remember you're too fucking close. And there's no, like, you have to act like we just keep saying, and I always say it back to myself when I have friends that go through it, like, you loved this person 30 seconds before you just found it. So that isn't gone immediately.

The hurt, the anger, all of it. But you still love that person. So you need someone. And you have to remember what your friends have. No ulterior motives other than making sure you're good.

And so just catch yourself if you're going against your friends in that moment, it's cuz you're trying to hold on to something and let them be the anchor to pull you the other way because they're actually just looking out for you. Yeah. And talk to them about it. Yeah. If you're sad you miss them or you.

That's okay. Talk about like good times and stuff like that. Talk to your friends about it like, and then just, but keep that, that no contact. I'm telling you, that wasn't, I think that was the whole, like, in my life, blah, blah, blah. Because I knew that I would go, no contact.

I'm so proud of you. I knew that's hard. That's what I knew. Even, even if it was just a breakup, I knew I was gonna go no con. Wow.

How did you know that? I just felt it in my gut that that was like the way to go. And like in the past I had not done that with other relationships. Yeah. And then like, I've been tick tock a lot the last like three years and I would see stuff about that and I was like, okay, I think that that's like, in this situation, that's what I would have to do.

Ariana Madix
Yeah. And I think that that was, you know, part of what was like, oh, I don't know, the troubling to him or something. What, that you wouldn't speak to him? Yeah. What did he expect, right.

That we would do the Schwartz and Katie, like, dog custody thing. Like, we're not doing that. No, you're getting the dog. Absolutely. Only.

Alex Cooper
What is it? Jennifer Cooley. I'm getting the dog. I'm taking the damn dog. Fuck you.

So you're like, I'm fucking taking the dog. Well, I paid for her adoption. My name is on her adoption paper. She loves you. I pay their vet bills.

Ariana Madix
I took her for walks, I gave her baths. Like, see Ariana, things that I would do that he wasn't doing. He gets the batteries. You take care of the fucking dog, dude. No, but I get what you're saying and that's another point when you are so strong to be like, I'm not speaking to you, to you.

Alex Cooper
This is a boundary, motherfucker. Oh, it enrages them. Yeah. I think the setting of boundaries has been, oh, you know, well, and you saw him at Lisa's breaking like, I don't know if it was real or not on a tude. I felt a little bit like a performance to be honest.

Ariana Madix
But then also, of course, I'm gonna be jaded because I don't trust. Right. And we have to. And he had just yelled at me. And then the day after, he yelled at me again after the Rachel scene.

So it, you know, it's hard to say, but that being said, the biggest thing that he was upset about in that moment was that he doesn't get to have another conversation with me because I said, you don't get another one. It's done. Like, say what you need to say. No, because we won't be doing this. And by the way, my friend Meredith and my other friends, like, they.

She's the Capricorn queen of my dreams. She made a spreadsheet that was like, who's gonna be staying with me? What night? I did not stay alone for weeks. And even after I went, I had friends fly in from New York to make sure I got to the wedding in Mexico that I went to.

And then even after I came back from Mexico, I still had friends that would stay with me every night, make sure I ate, make sure I slide. They were like, they had, like, their own group text. Now they've friends that didn't know each other before become friends that I've, like, always wanted them. Like, you guys love each other. Now they're, like, now they're better.

It's like, honestly, like, the. The community that is our friends, like, on and off the show is, like, the most incredible group of girls, gays. And they's like, I've never, like, honestly, I could not, like, I don't know how I could write. Like, if I was a super talented writer, I couldn't have created that in my life. Like, yeah, absolutely incredible.

Alex Cooper
And that's what I think, again, you kind of talk about, like, when you're going through it, let people actually help you guys, because doing it alone is torture. You can't do it alone. You can't. Or you go back to the one person you love the most, which is the person that hurt you. Yeah.

Ariana Madix
Or you. Yeah. You think you can. Yeah. And then you.

You end up, you know, it's just not healthy. Or you end up self medicating or doing my. My classic way of coping is isolation or sleeping. And it's like he always. He kept bringing that up.

Alex Cooper
Like, she just sleeps all the time. Like, yeah, maybe you should look inward. That is your partner. Okay? Or depressed or, like, what's going on?

Like. Like, maybe her dog just died, right? Like, be there for her. Get in bed. Yeah, get in bed.

Ariana Madix
Get in bed. Get in bed, bitch. Like, what the fuck? Like that? Isn't that where sex happens?

Right? You want sex so bad? She's laying in bed all day. Get in the bed. I'm in the bed.

Alex Cooper
She's in bed, naked, waiting. Go in, talk to her, emotionally, connect with her, and then get right. Men are so dumb. Like what? That right now that we say it.

She'S in bed all day and you're bitching about not getting fucked? What? What are we missing here? I'm not in the place where it happens, dude. Okay, rumor on the street is you're not single.

Is this like a situationship? Are we in a full relationship? Are we just fucking? Are we having, like, what are we doing? What are we doing?

Ariana, what's going on? I'm really, really enjoying myself. I am seeing someone. They live across the country in New York. So obviously, you know, it's kind of.

Ariana Madix
There's that whole aspect to it, right. But I would say it's, like, really, really great. It's good. And you guys met where? We met at a wedding.

Alex Cooper
When? Like, literally ten or eleven days after I found this out. Which people are like, what? Like, are you, like, literally. I just met this person.

Right. We did not start dating when I met them. Right. We just started talking. Right.

Ariana Madix
And then we were talking and talking and talking and it progressed and it's. Right. You had a moment to grieve. You're grieving still, but you can also fucking go see people. And also, it's like, really nice.

Like, on, like, okay, so I met him at this wedding and all we did was talk. Like, we stayed up all night just talking. Like, that's it? That's all you wanted? It's literally all I wanted.

I was like, quality time. What is this? And then he flew to where he lives and I flew over to where I am. And then we just facetimed and talked and talked and it was just like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm getting to know this person. And the conversations we were having were, like, so amazing.

It's not like we were like, we met and we're dating, you know? But, like, it was really great. And now I've been able. I've been going to New York for work, and so when I go to New York for work, I've been getting to see him and it's like, so nice. Having fun.

Alex Cooper
That's what I think also. People don't understand is, like, there's nothing wrong with any timeline. Post something that traumatic happens, you have to do what feels right. And so people that are like, oh, my God, it's so soon, Arianna. Like, well, then you do.

Ariana Madix
If I was, like, down on one knee proposing to this man, then we'd. Be having intervention right now. We need to, like, reel it in. But, like, you know, going, luckily for New York, being able to go every couple of weeks. This last.

Just this last month. Yeah. And just work, see my friends, see him, and, like, just really, like, love life. And honestly, like, having someone that literally will be like, we'll be on the phone, and he'll be like, you know, we're working. We're doing stuff.

And he's like, hey, can we just get, like, five minutes where we're like. We just, like, have, like, quality time on the phone? I'm like, are you kidding me? My dream in the past nine years. So I'm like, okay, great.

This is great how? Okay, give all the ladies advice of, like, nine years is a long motherfucking time. How do you not overthink it and allow yourself to be with someone that's not the person you've been with for nine years? It's like, a little bit of a mind fuck to be, like, open to getting back out there. Honestly, if you are overthinking it, be honest with yourself that you're overthinking it.

And just say, like, I'm overthinking this. Yeah. Or this is where I'm at. Be honest. I think that honesty and vulnerability, it's two of the sexiest things, I think, in any person.

And even if you're just, like, going out on a bunch of, like, casual dates with multiple people, be honest with those people. And if they're, like, not down for it, then they're not for you any. Yeah. And honestly, just, like, being honest with yourself, too, and saying, like, this is where I'm at. This is what I'm ready for.

This is what I'm now not ready for. Because then the day that I met the sky, I literally said, this is what I can handle. I can handle us talking. I can handle you telling me I'm pretty. I can maybe handle a smooch.

But beyond that, that's it. And he was very enthusiastically, like, okay, great. That sounds great. I just want to hang out. Right.

So I was like, okay, cool. Like, maybe, like, just be very clear about your boundaries and what you're okay with. Right. It's like, you don't have to go in and be like, so I have to be a fully. It's like, hey, and honestly, accepting, like, happiness and good things while you're healing.

There's no, like, no. Nothing bad about that. There is nothing. People that are judging are also just like, either you haven't been through it or like, you went through it and you did something different that didn't work for you and try to judge, like, let everyone do what they want. Right.

Because we're all different people and we all are in different situations. Right. And like I said, someone does. We were saying that someone does some shit like this to you. That door is slammed shut.

It is way easier to grieve a relationship or that. Is that cut and dry. Yeah. Than it is. Yeah.

One that isn't. I can't believe his. I just remembered you said his family didn't reach out to you. Has they, have they still not reach out tomorrow? No.

Alex Cooper
It's kind of weird. No, yeah. I mean, I understand. Like, what would they say? I guess I would just think they'd be like, hey, this sucks.

Like, wishing you the best. Just that period. Just that, like nine years. There was some respect. Yeah, not great.

Okay. This is a fresh start. Yeah. And the beginning of a new era for you. What do you want for yourself?

Ariana Madix
I want independence on like, every level. I want to be able to be completely financially independent. Thank God. I don't have like a ton of tied things, but I want to be, like, financially independent and successful. I want to open my sandwich shop with Katie and have that be a total hit, which I think it will be.

Alex Cooper
What street is it on? Robertson. Oh, I am there. Do you know how there's, like, no good sandwiches in LA? And you guys were so right.

The only ones are, like, male. No offense to fat cells. No, but it's like, it's only fat cells. Yeah. Or like Uncle Polly's.

Ariana Madix
Exactly. Just so right. Not the vibe. Right. We're going for right.

It's not that. Then what is it? I get it. I love it. I love it.

Alex Cooper
So you guys are opening? Yes. Fabulous. You're not. You're not letting it, like, go to the wayside.

Like, this is still happening. Oh, yeah. Good for you. Yeah. Okay.

Ariana Madix
You're very. I'm very excited about all of that. Yeah. I just want to be independent. Independent and successful.

I mean, all the things that I always wanted previously, but now it's like, really nice to be able to do it on my. And I want to be a solo homeowner. I want to own my own home with no one else on the deed. God bless you. And you deserve it.

Alex Cooper
Okay, last two questions. Okay, what do you want everyone to know about you outside side of this scandal?

You're like, I had too much. Leave me alone. Like, I love long walks on the beach. I like Rose, and I want to move to the french countryside. I like Beyonce.

Ariana Madix
I'm like, okay, look, I just want people to know that I understand that reality tv is very over the top at times. And yes, of course, we love the drama. I love the drama. I mean, I'm a love island Stan, as we know. But I just want people to know that, like, again, like, what you were saying, like, on the other side of it, we are real people.

I'm, you know, kind of like a perpetually barefoot girl from Florida, you know? And I love my girls, and I love my friends. And I just think that something I hope that all of this stuff brings is that we all just kind of, like, join together, because I just think that I love women, and I think we are the fucking best. And I just think that when we team up, like, we are unstoppable. Unstoppable.

Alex Cooper
I am so happy you came today because I truly think, like, you are. You're so classy, and you have such a head on your shoulders, even though in the midst of quite literally one of the biggest, most painful moments of your life. I'm so sorry this happened to you. But I do weirdly think, thank God, Ariana. Thank God, because you would have potentially been with him and not known, and it's like, you deserve so much fucking better.

And you know what? Let him go do his thing. Let her go do her thing. Whatever. She's going through it.

Everyone is meant to not be in whatever. It just was. And you're amazing, and I can't wait to watch the reunion. Although it's like, do you have any fear of, like, people watching it? Like, is there anything you want to preface before we turn our tvs?

Ariana Madix
I just hope I wasn't, like, too cutthroat. No, bitch, you. I don't know. We want the drop. I think I go in.

I don't know. I blacked out. I think everyone was like, lala's gonna destroy. And we hope Ariana's right underneath being, like, a little bit, you know, getting in there. Yeah, I'm excited.

Well, cheers. Thanks for having me.

Alex Cooper
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