How Testing Out Countless Side Hustles Helped This Founder Go From Being Broke to Building an 8-Figure Business - Cathryn Lavery, Founder of BestSelf Co.

This episode delves into Cathryn Lavery's journey from struggling architect to successful entrepreneur, exploring the pivotal role side hustles played in her transition to founding BestSelf Co.

1. Transitioning careers can lead to significant opportunities if pursued with determination.
2. Side hustles can be a practical testing ground for business ideas and personal growth.
3. Crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter can provide essential capital and validation for new products.
4. Building a business often requires overcoming numerous personal and professional challenges.
5. Entrepreneurial success often demands continuous learning and adaptation.

1. Introduction and Background

Yasmine Nori introduces Cathryn Lavery, discussing her journey from an architect to an entrepreneur. Cathryn shares her initial struggles and the inception of BestSelf Co.

• Cathryn Lavery: "I moved to New York with only $758, and after a massive pay cut, I was forced to rethink my career path."

2. The Role of Side Hustles

Cathryn details how various side hustles not only helped her financially but also equipped her with skills crucial for her later success.

• Cathryn Lavery: "Side hustles were not just about money; they were about discovering what I truly wanted to do."

3. Kickstarter Success

Discussion on how Cathryn used Kickstarter to launch her first product, leading to unexpected success and the growth of BestSelf Co.

• Cathryn Lavery: "Our initial goal was $15,000, but we raised over $300,000, which was completely unforeseen."

4. Productivity Insights

Cathryn shares productivity tips and insights into maintaining balance while building a business.

• Cathryn Lavery: "It's about managing your energy, not just your time."

5. Looking Ahead

Cathryn talks about the future of BestSelf Co, reflecting on lessons learned and how she plans to drive the company forward.

• Cathryn Lavery: "It's important to adapt and evolve, both personally and professionally."

1. Explore Side Hustles: They can provide valuable skills and extra income.
2. Utilize Crowdfunding: To test product ideas and gain initial market traction.
3. Focus on Productivity: Develop personal strategies to enhance daily efficiency.
4. Embrace Change and Learning: Always look for opportunities to grow and adapt.
5. Build Resilience: Entrepreneurship requires the ability to bounce back from setbacks.

Cathryn Lavery is the founder of BestSelf Co., a productivity tool-based business that sells journals, planners and conversation decks to help people achieve their goals and be their best selves.

Cathryn moved to New York City from Ireland with only $758 and after the challenges she faced in her role as an architect and not making a livable wage, she was forced to find other means of income on the side. Despite having 7 years under her belt she realized this line of work was not the path for her. She eventually decided to go off on her own and transformed herself into an 8-figure founder.

Going back to the early days, her side hustle eventually grew into something much bigger and that’s when Cathryn launched her Kickstarter campaign in 2015 to crowdfund her first product. BestSelf Co. sold $45 million in products before getting acquired in 2022, but recently Cathryn repurchased back her company to do things differently.

In this week’s episode, Cathryn walks us through how she was forced into entrepreneurship because of necessity when she received a massive pay cut and the steps she took to figure things out when it was the most challenging for her. Cathryn shares how the idea for BestSelf was born, what she did to build up her confidence to take the leap, the early days of the business, and how she and her team managed to raise over $300,000 on her Kickstarter campaign with the goal only being $15k. We talk about her top productivity tips and lifestyle hacks that can help all of us be our best selves. She tells us about steps in finding the right business partner, why she decided to repurchase her company after 2 years of it being acquired, what it’s like to juggle being a new mom and founder, and so much more.

People

Cathryn Lavery

Companies

BestSelf Co.

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

None

Content Warnings:

None

Yasmine Nori

Hey, everyone, I'm Yasmine Nori, and you're listening to the behind her Empire podcast. I'm on a mission to showcase successful, self made women who share honest stories and lessons of what it really takes to create the life you want and. Build your own empire. If you've been listening to the show, you know, just like you, I've been on my own personal dream to build my empire. I started my business BIA to help women tackle their period problems and hormonal imbalances using a natural whole food approach.

If you're suffering from bad cramps, irregular periods, fatigue, bloating, stay tuned because a little bit later in the podcast, I'll share a bit more about my company, BIA. But for now, let's jump into today's episode. I want to welcome this week's guest, Katherine Lavery, to our show today. Katherine is the founder of Best Self Company, a productivity tool based business that sells journals, planners and conversation decks to help people achieve their goals and be their best selves. Before founding best self, Catherine was an architect in New York, and despite having seven years under her belt, she realized this line of work was not the path for her.

Catherine moved to New York City from Ireland with only $758, and after the challenges she faced in her role as an architect and not making a livable wage, she was forced to find other means of income on the side. Despite having seven years under her belt, she realized that being an architect was not the path for her. She eventually decided to go off on her own and transformed herself into an eight figure founder, going back to the early days. Her side hustle eventually grew into something much bigger, and that's when Kathryn launched her Kickstarter campaign in 2015 to crowdfund her first product. Best Self sold 45 million in product before getting acquired in 2022.

But recently, Catherine repurchased her company to do things differently. In this week's episode, Catherine walks us through how she was forced into entrepreneurship because of necessity when she received a massive pay cut and the steps she took to figure things out when it was the most challenging for her. Katherine also dives into the details of how the idea of best self was born, what she did to build up her confidence to take that leap, the early days of the business, and how she managed to raise over $300,000 in her Kickstarter campaign when the goal was only 15,000. We talk about her top productivity tips and lifestyle hacks that can help us all become our best selves. She also tells us about the steps to take to make sure you're finding the right business partner, why she decided to repurchase her company after two years of it being acquired and what it's like juggling being a new mom and founder and so much more.

Welcome to the show, Catherine. It's so great to be here. Oh, my gosh. I was just telling you I was going down a deep rabbit hole with all the work and content you put out there. I love, love, love your blog.

I love your story. And it really caught me thinking a lot about my business. So I'm excited to dig in today because I have millions of questions. But before we go into your own personal journey, what I found so interesting about one of your blogs is you were doing 100 days of doing challenge, and you said after those hundred days, it completely changed your life. So I'm super curious, what were you doing and how in the world did it change your life?

Katherine Lavery

So something that I like to do when I'm feeling like, in a rut is I'll challenge myself to do something. So when I was trying to lose my baby weight, I'm like, okay, I'm going to do 75 hard, and I go from, like, zero to 100. And another thing I wanted when I sold my company, I was like, I want to get better at video, but I'm always, like, too much of a perfectionist. Or I'm like, I didn't say that, right? And so I said, I'm going to post one video on social every day for 100 days.

It doesn't even need to go anywhere. It's not for a purpose. It's really just to get better at doing something that I think would be beneficial in the future. And it's kind of weird for me, as kind of an overachiever to do something without a goal in mind. And so people were like, what's the goal?

And I said, the goal is just doing the content and then enjoying it and figuring it out along the way. I love that. And how did that change your life after the hundred days? I think I just got better at, like, telling stories or coming up with idea or just not getting caught up with it, needing to be perfect or just right because, you know, I have ADHD, so sometimes I will just not do something at all or I'll have the best intentions and I'll get 80% of the way done and then just not put it out. Yeah.

And it's just, you may as well do nothing at that point, you know? I mean, I love this, actually. I did not know you did it with video. But I get a lot of people who reach out because for my business, we do a lot of content, and I have this podcast, which is fun. And so I get a lot of those questions like, how did you get started?

Yasmine Nori

I'm such a perfectionist. I, you know, how do you put yourself out there? And what I find so interesting about your story is that you said you were an overachiever, but on the flip side, you're okay showing up not knowing what you're saying or doing, right? Because it's part. Part of.

Of building that muscle. So how do you work through? You clearly are a high achiever, type a personality, but you have no problem putting yourself in situations that you don't know 100% of the facts or you're 100% comfortable. How do you balance those two? Because so many women listening are in that boat.

Katherine Lavery

I mean, for me, I just. I always want to learn and figure out things. And, I mean, on my blog, I've made so many mistakes. And I'll show up to a meeting and people will be like, you know, they use all the acronyms, and I'm not afraid to just be like, I'm sorry, what does that mean? It might seem silly, but.

And maybe some people are going to be too proud to do that, but then I'll figure out what it means and I can actually add more to the conversation, which is going to be more beneficial for me in the long run. And you kind of just have to get over that because everyone in that meeting at some point didn't know what that meant. It also is you're humble enough to be like, oh, even though I'm sort of on a leadership call with another company and we're talking, I want to get clear so that I can give advice, because if you're just pretending, you're actually going to make a less impressive impression because you're not going to be able to ask the right questions because you're going to be surface level on everything, whereas if you just admit that you don't know something, that's the first way to figure it out. Yeah. And I think I love that because it's being okay asking those, quote unquote, like, silly questions.

Yasmine Nori

And I joke, we were looking to run this big project, and I was on a phone with my co founder, and I'm that person. I have no problem even in, like, a personal situation. I'll be like, wait, can you explain that to me? Or how did you do that? Like, I will ask that dumb question.

And I told her I was like, all right, get ready. I'm going to ask if I don't understand something because it's a big financial burden for us. So I just want to make sure, you know, whatever we pull the trigger on, which is really anything in business, I want to be very clear. And so much of what we do is like, we don't know what we don't know. Right.

So I'm still even, it's like, I'll ask the questions, but I'm sure there's so many mistakes, you know, so many things I'm not even asking. So it's like, you know, you try your best, you ask the questions, but I love that you show up, and especially for content, I feel like, you know, you build that storytelling technique and you also figure out for yourself, like, what you enjoy through the process. And I think doing this podcast for three years, I now can filter what guests give me energy. Right. What do I get excited about to talk about?

Because I do this for fun, and if it's miserable, then I'm not going to sustain. Right. In the long term. But I love that, and I love how you always challenge yourself. One thing I was thinking as you were talking is a lot of times when people break into a new industry and they do really well in it, it's because they had no idea, they didn't know about the industry, and so they're able to take all these things that they learn from something else and apply it, and then they're asking different questions.

Katherine Lavery

And I've seen that show up where I didn't know something, and then I'll be like, oh, but you could do this like this. And they're like, oh, yeah, I guess you could. And so I see that as a benefit because you don't have this curse of knowledge and stepping outside of that to, like, ask what people might think are dumb questions but lead to something more. Yeah. And even when it's like creating a business, right.

Yasmine Nori

So many people are like, oh, I'm not the expert, but that's to your point, it's a good thing. You're thinking about things in a different way. And there's so many women who, like you, break into industries that might not know exactly how things are done, but are very successful because they do it differently. So I love that you brought that up because I'm fully, fully on board. So, you know, going to your childhood, I am just so fascinated.

You are such an entrepreneur, hustling in so many different ways. But I'm curious to get your perspective around you know, what do I need to understand about your childhood to really understand the woman that you are today? Oh, that's a. I've never been asked that question before. I think I didn't even know what an entrepreneur was growing up.

Katherine Lavery

Like, my parents had very conventional careers. Like, they would get calls from neighbors being like, your daughter's here to see if she can mow the lawn or, like, wash the car. I always wanted to, like, figure out how to make my own money. And I had an e commerce store at an eBay store when I was 13, and so I had all these things going on, but then I was like, okay, I got to get serious about school, and I'll be an architect because I liked design and I was good at maths, and that seemed to make sense. And so I always wonder, like, I mean, I don't regret anything because it got me here, but I always wonder, like, if I had someone in my life who had their own business or showed me that this, that was even a path.

I literally had no idea when I told. When I first, like, kind of quit architecture and went into business. And by that, I meant I just started a business. Yeah. I didn't know what I was doing.

Yasmine Nori

Yeah. A lot of people were like, my dad, especially, was just, like, very nervous about it. I think my friends thought I was going through some sort of midlife crisis because I'd done architecture at school. And so I think, for me, is being okay to, like, realize, oh, this isn't the right path, and choose something else, because I think a lot of times, you know, I did architecture. I got a master's.

Katherine Lavery

I moved to New York to be an architect. And a lot of times you climb this ladder and you think, oh, if I do something else, I have to, like, go down and then start over again. But a lot of the skills that I took from architecture, I applied somewhere else. And so I think if I had to say one thing for my childhood is just not getting caught up in the outside view of what you should be doing. Because if you're just like, if you follow the recipe and you don't get where you want to go, nobody's going to be punished except for you, and nobody else cares, really, about your life.

I'm sure you don't think, like, oh, that person I went to high school with, they really are doing nothing with their. It's like, we don't even think of that. And so we have to start. Stop putting so much emphasis on other people's ideas of how we live our life and just do what we think is the best for us. It's so true.

Yasmine Nori

And I remember it just made me realize when I went through my journey, I was in finance, so corporate as well. And when I started this podcast for fun, I remember thinking, oh, I'm actually a little embarrassed to post the episodes on LinkedIn because it's all of my finance people for the past nine years. Like, it was just a different thing. And looking back, and I still did it, right. I was like, whatever.

I feel uncomfortable. And, you know, it's not like my finance friends or colleagues or mentors were liking it and engaging. They probably like, what is she doing? What is this podcast? But they were watching.

And, you know, years later, I get messages like, Yasmin, great job. You should interview this person. I was like, you were supporting me silently over the years. Like, I had no clue, and I was so embarrassed. But to your point, no one cares.

No one says anything. So as long as it fulfills you, like, do your own thing. Because I do agree. Like, sometimes we can get in our heads so much about what other people think, and it's the biggest thing holding people back, and the biggest thing that was holding me back for taking the leap, which took me a while. But I'm always so curious because you said, you know, your family was in a more traditional sense, and you grew up in Ireland, right?

So not. Yeah. No other. Yeah, yeah. So I don't even know entrepreneurship.

Like, I'm sure for sure no one was talking about it back then. But where do you think you had that confidence in yourself to be different and to leave everything and take so many leaps? Like, was it kind of going back to your childhood of. You were always kind of hustling, and people were always questioning what you were doing. So you're okay with that?

Like, where does that confidence come from? I don't know. I always. I never thought I was that confident. I think I just.

Katherine Lavery

I like figuring things out, and I get bored. I think it's like, I mean, I didn't get diagnosed with ADHD until I was, like, 31. And so I think a lot of it was like, oh, I like figuring things out and just seeing what I enjoyed. Like, I would just tell my parents, look, the report cards coming home today, and I'm gonna just tell you right now, these subjects is just not gonna be good. It's like religion, home economics.

There's, like, certain things, like, I don't care about these top subjects. I remember once I, like, literally turned an exam paper over, and I'm drawing this elaborate, like, cartoon on it, which I got. The teacher was like, okay, you get an a for this. You get a c for the. For everything, like you were supposed to be doing.

I had an older brother who had some learning difficulties and a younger brother who was just need a lot of, like, healthcare growing up. And so I think I was kind of, you know, I would say, like, I would tease my parents, like, oh, you didn't. You, like, didn't read with me when I was growing up. And they were like, you were. You were like, fine.

And so I think I, like, learned independence and would just figure things out for myself. And that kind of was good. I mean, in some ways, it's like, actually that got me ready, and I was just kind of, like, figuring stuff out. And so I think that really helped me moving forward so that I could, you know, move to the US and do a bunch of things that maybe if they were more helicoptery. That's a word.

Like, I wouldn't have been able to do that. Yeah. And that's so interesting that you were saying you were diagnosed with ADHD at 31. I joke with my husband because I love doing a bunch of different things. I'm like, who knows?

Yasmine Nori

Maybe I have add. It's never stopped me from school or getting that job. But, you know, I'm like, why do I have this interest to do so much? And we'll get into your business later in terms of productivity, because I'm like, now that my life is at a different level, what are different ways to add in those productivity tools? Because I'm always interested in doing more and more.

And as your life gets bigger, whether it's family, other personal engagements, life, like, it's good to get in there. But that's so interesting, kind of hearing how you were diagnosed a little bit later. But I feel like so many beautiful qualities came from that, with your interests and work and doing so many things. So that's. And I guess women don't get diagnosed, so, like, they're 39, really?

Katherine Lavery

Yeah. It's. Because apparently it shows up differently because I remember this guy I grew up with, and he had ADHD, and he was, like, off the charts. It was very different. But I guess for girls and boys, it shows up very differently.

So for girls, they don't get diagnosed till much later. Cause it's just not the same symptoms, I guess. Hey, everyone, it's Yasmin here in 2020. I was struggling with some debilitating health stuff. I just got off birth control, and suddenly I had acne, mood swings, breast.

Yasmine Nori

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Yasmin

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And that's spelled Beeya wellness.com and check out the show notes for our promo code to get $10 off your first purchase. Thanks so much for listening. And now let's get back to today's episode. Going back to. You moved to New York, like you said briefly when you were quite young, you get this job with a company, but things didn't really turn out the way you wanted.

Yasmine Nori

And maybe that was, like, your first foray into, like, real life challenges and business. But tell me more about what happened at that time and why it perhaps is maybe so critical in your maybe, like, entrepreneurial journey. Yeah. So when I moved to New York, I did an internship for a summer at an architecture firm. And my goal, I always wanted to live in New York.

Katherine Lavery

We went when I was 18 for my 18th birthday, and I was just like, oh, I want to live here. So I got an internship and then they offered me a job to come back to once I finish my masters. So I get my visa. I have two weeks off before I'm starting this full time job, and a week into that, so I'm, like, exploring the city, like, getting ready, getting to an apartment and everything. And they email me and they say, look, work's a little slow, so can you start six weeks later instead of next week?

And then I called them and they were like, well, yeah, I know that people graduate and they want to travel, and. And I was just like, well, I did travel. I traveled here, and I didn't have the money to just chill. And I also was tied to this company for my visa, and I didn't want to call my parents and tell them that I need money, which I did. And so I just figured, okay, I started learning how to do, like, kindle book formatting for people and logo design, just a lot of things.

And when I look back at that time, you know, I'm not a big believer of gifts not coming wrapped. And in the moment, you know, the whole chinese farmer story with the thinking something's negative in the moment, but when you look back, that was actually a great thing that happened. That's kind of how I look at these negative, seemingly negative in the moment where that was my first thing. We're like, okay, I need to figure out how to make money myself, and I also can't really depend on this job. And that's what a lot of, even my, my parents when I first was getting into entrepreneurship, it's like, oh, it's, it's so risky.

And it's like, well, actually, it's risky having one source of income that can be, like, stopped at any time. And it's, this is a total side quest. But getting a mortgage as an entrepreneur is insanely difficult, which is insane because my employees can get a mortgage easier than I can, even though I have much more control over income than they would. If I just, like, fire them on the spot, it's insane. So that's kind of where I first learned of, oh, this is actually a risk.

And then I just learned skills that helped me make more money. And then I actually did start that job six weeks later, but it kind of got that bug in my ear of like, oh, let me get something started on the side. And I actually, I started my first shopify store in 2012 on the side of that job. And that was kind of my first, like, oh, maybe I could do something. And again, I had no idea about business.

I'd never been. I literally never took a business studies class, even when I could have in school. It just wasn't that interesting. But I liked selling things and starting eBay stores and doing that sort of thing, but I didn't tie them to business. I was just like, I know how to get these products and sell them to other people.

And so it's just funny looking back where I didn't tie the two skills together. And I'm curious, like, you also didn't think maybe at the time when you started that side hustle because you needed money genuinely, like, there's nothing better than having a fire under you to make something happen because you actually don't have a choice. You have no family in New York, no friends, no money, no job, and you're like, I got to figure something out. So, like, what a beautiful experience that was. But did you ever think once you got the taste of, you know, your mini entrepreneurship experience, part one, like, this could be something, or you still didn't understand that that could be potentially full time business because your mind was still in the architecture job and going down that path.

My mind was still there. It was just more of an interest. Like, oh, maybe I would supplement my income with something on the side because I also wasn't going to be making a lot anyway. And so I wouldn't, I know I would have been living check to check. So it gave me a little more freedom to live.

And the stuff I was doing, I enjoyed it. So it didn't feel that, like, work. That'S also super key. So, you know, I'm fast forwarding a little bit. But you ended up leaving that job at some point.

Yasmine Nori

But you talk about how you took measured risk and it's not something that you did overnight. Right? Like, I feel like we see all these stories about, like, overnight successes. She leaves her job and it's like, let's actually dig into that because I'm sure it was something you were more thoughtful about and you were, as I was doing prep. So tell me more about what are some things you did behind the scenes of prepping yourself to eventually kind of take that leap?

Katherine Lavery

So one of the things I did was I wanted, I knew I wanted to leave my job, but I felt like, oh, well, I need to know more about business before I can leave this. So I created, like, my own MBA list of, like, here's all the books around, like, finance and money and business that I need to read before I'm allowed to quit my job. And it was like 23 books that, you know, I had a 45 minutes commute each way to work. So I would just read these books on the subway and learn from that. And then I was probably 16 months into the business.

The business was making more than my shopify store is making more than my day job at that point. But I. I'm, like, fulfilling orders from my apartment. So I would, like, get home from work, and my work was not like a nine to five, it was like a eight to seven. Like, I would never leave the office before seven.

So I was just getting home, and then I would hire a taskrabbit to go to the post office for me because I didn't have time. And even when I quit my job, I had. I was, you know, I was making more, but I was still like, oh, my God, what if I quit my job and I end up being a bum? Like, because I never had nothing to do before, like, where I could plan my structure. Yeah, yeah.

I'm like, what if I just turn into someone I don't like? And so I told my bosses that I was gonna take a three month hiatus, and it was basically, I kind of framed it like I was waiting for my work permit to come through, like, because I got my green card, and I'm waiting for my work permit to whatever. I forget the reason, but I would finish off this project on site, which was one day a week, and then the rest of the time, I could see if I liked having my own time. And so I knew within, like, two weeks, I was like, oh, yeah. Every Wednesday was, like, my site day, and I would come home at the end of the day, I'm like, okay, I need to be done there.

And that's actually where I first started creating structure in my life, where I'm like, okay, how do I plan my day again? A lot of the things that later became products for best self started is me trying to create structure around ADHD that I didn't realize I had, but I'd create all these systems for me to be able to work better in my day so that I could achieve the things I need without kind of letting my day get away from me. Yes, I have so many questions right there. And before we go into structure, because I feel like there's so much that we can talk about. But you mentioned, which I think is so cool that you read, I think it was like 22 books, like you said, as your MBA, just so you can be a little bit more knowledgeable.

Yasmine Nori

What were some of the books that you think were the most impactful for you during that time? Or concepts? It doesnt even have to be this specific book. I mean, one of the things was, I read the e myth about creating systems in your business. Had no idea about that.

Katherine Lavery

There was a book called the personal MBA, which I got a ton of, just, like, how to run your life like a business and principles that I had no idea by Ramit Sethi. I read his book, ill teach you to be rich. Thank God. Because I had no idea what to do with money either. Literally.

Like, I went to a chase bank in Queens, and I'm like, what? And luckily I read his book, or I would have invested it with this random guy in this random branch who was trying to sell me on this whatever it was. And I'm like, this 1% expense ratio seems high. A lot of the things that later would become useful maybe weren't useful in the time, but I felt like I knew more. And I think even thinking that, you know, more gives you more confidence that, yes, I can quit my job and figure it out.

And that's what I did. Yeah. And. And then going back to the second point where you're talking about structure, I think, you know, we actually don't talk a lot about that. The biggest adjust or one of the biggest adjustments, you know, there's so much that you're juggling when you leave a corporate job, and that's what you're used to, and you're kind of running or doing your own thing.

Yasmine Nori

For me, it was actually like structure. There's definitely so much for you to do, so it's not like you're sitting there twiddling your thumbs, but, you know, even now being three years in my journey or maybe four years since I've left working for someone, quote unquote, I'm still trying to fine tune it, and it's still something that, as a business grows or different stages, shifts and changes. So I'm always thinking about structure, but tell me more. Like, you, I know, took a lot of time and really studied what do successful people do when it comes to systems and structure? And it's something that you were thinking for your life.

So what worked for you in those early days when you were taking that leap? And it was this first new life change that you had. Yeah. So I think one of the biggest shifts I had was, I used to think I was a night owl because my dad, that was what he was, and I would stay up late. And I remember when I was in architecture school, the professor would always yell at us for staying up all night, which he was so right to.

Katherine Lavery

He's like, you're not. You're not productive. You don't get more done. You just a zombie. You're just borrowing time from the next day.

And it was years later when I'm reading all about just, like, habit. Literally, I had no idea about good habits, and I convinced myself I was a night out. And then I just was like, well, what if I wasn't? What if I've just decided, like, the miracle morning, that was a book that changed my life a lot because I was like, okay, if I'm at a corporate job all day, I need to create some time for myself, which is just getting up early, and I would just be like, okay, I'm a robot. Like, let me just follow the structure that he sets out, do it for 30 days, and then tweak from there, and it doesn't have to be perfect.

It's just like, get up early, do the things for myself before I go and give myself to someone else. And even years later, you know, now I have a baby and I have a completely different view on how I used to talk to people about productivity with kids. I'm like, I want to punch myself in the face, you know what I mean? Because now you have a toddler and it's just completely different. But the days that I get up before her and do something for myself, the day always goes better after that.

And so that sort of principle applied back when I had all the time in the world as far as getting up and freedom to know I have a kid. If you get up and sort of look after yourself first and get a couple of important things for you, for you, I show up better as a parent, as like a wife, everything, because I know that I'm not trying to catch up with the day and put myself last. I love that. I think I had a quote that you said, I love this. I want to talk about it because you were saying, just getting up early, even with a kid, that was my question.

Yasmine Nori

Like, how has that shifted? But you still continue to wake up before your baby because having that time for yourself and knocking out that work or it's meditating or listening to something positive, like whatever that means for you, has been super key. And you said this quote where you said, most entrepreneurs don't have business problems, they have emotional problems disguised as business problems. The reason why I brought that up is because you were saying when you start your morning like that, your psychology and how you show up is so much better. And what I'm realizing in business is so much of that is like managing your emotional self and your psychology.

So it sounds like you wake up in the morning, but it really makes a big difference. So maybe we can talk more about dealing with some of those emotional aspects, because I do think that's what's holding a lot of people back, whether it's starting a business or even getting the growth they want in their business. Yeah, I'm a big believer of just showing up as your best. And, like, what's, what's the, like, athletes, when they go out and play a game, I don't watch sports, as you'll be able to tell from this analogy, but they don't literally, like, get out of bed and walk onto the court. They have a whole system of, like, they listen to music, they stretch.

Katherine Lavery

They do all this stuff so that they can show up as their best. How many people roll out of bed, deal with their toddler, and then are trying to show up at work. And I'm not saying that I don't get up every day before my baby, unfortunately, but I can see the difference in my days when I show up, look after myself. And then you already have sort of accomplished something in your day, which when you're getting your toddler up, you're not, no longer feeling like you're rushing them. And so there's a different, you're showing up with a different psychology with other people because you're not in your head being like, I have to work on this and this and this.

You're actually being more present by that one small thing. And a lot of people, I've heard this, you know, bad things come in three, and it's like, do they come in three or do they come in one? And then your psychology, you show up differently, and then other bad things happen and you let the negativity, oh, of course this happened to me. What else is going to go wrong? And something else goes wrong.

And I feel when I have those days where I feel myself slipping into, oh, what else? I have to sort of reset, because I know it's like a slippery slope where if you keep going down there, you'll find something, and then suddenly you've added and created this mess that really came initially from one thing not going correctly. But again, if you lack of my past, a lot of the things that, like, were negative in the moment turned out to be a good thing. And so that's kind of what I try to frame in the moment. And, you know, you talk a lot about.

Yasmine Nori

And again, you've practiced this in your own life about, like, goal setting and planning. And my husband's a big planner, and I think, you know, he's definitely been an entrepreneur much longer than me. And he's made me realize, like, so much of planning your schedule. And maybe some people might be listening and think, you know, this is too structured because I'll kind of share my day with people and they're like, you know, you need more flow. And then sometimes I'll get distracted and be like, maybe they're right.

But I realize having a business is kind of like being an athlete, and you have to do different things to get different results. And I have to remind myself that not everyone understands the behind the scenes of running a business. And that's why I loved, like, your blog, because I feel like you're in it. You know, you really understand it. So how important is, like, planning and structuring your day and how do you approach it?

Katherine Lavery

So I used to be much more structured than I am. No, I'm structured, but more of, like, managing our energy instead of my time. Because when I started, instead of looking at everything as the same thing, some things will give me energy, but it's very important. And then some things is very important, but, like, sucks the life out of me and deciding when I have the most energy. So I'll do the thing.

I'll get some momentum in the day by doing something I can do first thing, and then I'll hit. I used to eat the frog first thing. Now I try to give myself a little momentum by getting something that won't take me that long out of the way. And then I hit the time suck one. And usually after lunch, when I'm feeling like, I feel like the hours between two and four are just these black holes.

I don't know what happens during that time. And so I know, like, during that time, let me work on something like this that I enjoy working on and doesn't feel like work because otherwise, that time just kind of, I don't know where it goes. And so that's kind of how I look at my day. And then again, if I want to work out, I put it in my calendar, and now I am really. It signs more.

What's the, like, type a? But it's actually gives you more freedom if you structure your day because you know you're hitting everything. When you don't structure anything, you're actually just letting your time go by. And we, a lot of times, you know, people will, you know, we all have ring doorbells and all this, like, stuff, protecting our stuff. But it's like, are you protecting your time?

Because you will never get it back. And if you don't put anything in your calendar, oftentimes it kind of just slips away. It's so true. I love that because some people are like, oh, you're gonna set a calendar invite. And now my friends don't say anything.

Yasmine Nori

Like, I'll always be the one, even from years ago. But I love what you said, because it does give you freedom. And for me, it gives me peace of mind to be more relaxed, to show up better, to still do a podcast even though I'm running a business. Like, it does make me feel like, okay, it's out of my brain in the calendar. Let me just follow up.

But I love actually how you kind of think about your day, and it's more about energy management. I know Tony Robbins talks all about that, and I'm all about energy management. So just to recap, you take your mornings, you do something that, like, gives you maybe a little bit of energy to have momentum, and then you'll go into that tough thing before lunch. Is that kind of how you think about it? Pretty much.

Katherine Lavery

I mean, the small momentum thing might be sending a couple of emails that I've been wanting to send, which will take 20 minutes, and then I'm like, okay. I'm, like, starting my day, and then I will go into something that I don't want to be doing, but I know it's important. Like, when I did the video challenge, it was like, okay, what's today's thing? Because I didn't want to do it, but I knew as soon as it was done, that was the thing for the day that I'd been wanting to get done. Honestly, like, real friends send calendar invites.

Like, my friends in Austin were big calendar invite people. I finally, like, got my wife to start sending calendar invites, because if it's not on my calendar, I will literally just forget it exists. Yeah, same, same. Literally. No, I love that.

Yasmine Nori

So you clearly were, like, creating these structures and systems, and you, I don't know if it was accidentally, but you kind of started, you know, your company best self on the side. Tell us more about how that flourished from, you know, your own personal experience. Yeah. So I was essentially just creating a bunch of random systems to help me get through my day. And I was just like, if I had known about this when I was at university, because I look back at my university days and I just worked constantly, but was, like, not productive all the time.

Katherine Lavery

It just felt like I was on a hamster wheel, and I just didn't know what I didn't know. I'm like, oh, man, if I knew about, like, habits and all these, like, things that I had, you know, I'd read all these books. I learned how to manage myself better, which, like, why. Why don't we learn that at school? It's insane.

And so I had the luxury of reading all these books, like, okay, what if I could create a system for myself? Like, I was like, how do I create a journal? Because I tried a bunch of different planners and I would like parts of them but not all of them, and I'm like, how do I create a system where if I do this every day, I know I'm gonna get to where I want to go? So it was like, let me set a goal, and then the whole point of the journal is like, three months later, you hit the goal. Because I don't really believe in year long planning.

You can have year long, as in like, new year's resolutions, because there's just too much time to procrastinate. And you can get way more done if you plan in quarterly, like, lumps. So that's kind of where it came from. But then printing them was gonna be really expensive. So I was like, oh, I could kick start this because I'd done a few kickstarters before and that's kind of how it started.

So I had a, I had the shopify business, I had an Amazon thing I was doing. And then I'm like, okay, well, I want to be more productive in these businesses. Let me create this and I'll see if anyone else wants it. So I'll put it on Kickstarter. And then the Kickstarter took off and I'm like, what if this was a thing?

And so I basically, almost overnight was like, okay, I'm like, quitting this other stuff or putting on autopilot. And I'm just going to go all in on this because what is so random of anything I've done, you know, to, like, make money or do anything? This was the one that was like a passion project that I started for fun, and this was the one that I could see the most traction with. And I'm like, okay, maybe I'm onto something. I love that.

Yasmine Nori

And, yeah, I mean, looking at the numbers you did. So this was, I believe was 2015. You did the Kickstarter and you were planning on raising fifteen k, and you did three, like almost 330,000 in 34 days. That's wild. What do you think?

Really? I mean, I know the journal is incredible and you have so many new products now, but what do you think really resonated with people that it did so incredibly well? Like, even to the point where I think it shocked you. Yeah, I think at the time, I mean, it was the first, like, guided journal walking you through how to do something. And I think we kind of hit a nerve of everyone feeling busy, but they weren't productive and, like, figuring out how to end your day, not feeling like I stand my day with these epic to do lists that somehow got longer throughout the day.

Katherine Lavery

And even if I worked all day, I still felt like a failure at the end. And it was because you're on this hamster wheel where you're setting yourself up for failure. And so I think sharing some of the structured ways that I had changed and was planning my days, people were like, oh, yeah, I realize I am actually setting myself for failure from the beginning. And, yeah, I think it just struck a chord with people and they were interested. Oh, my God.

Yasmine Nori

I mean, I feel like so many people, I might even be still in the process of setting myself up for failure. I'm like, why does my to do list get longer and longer? And that's just reality, whether you work for someone or you have a business. But what would be some of the biggest takeaways? I know, obviously the action of doing the journal is helpful, but what are some of the biggest takeaways that can free someone from feeling like, man, this to do list just never, ever ends.

Katherine Lavery

One of the big things is figuring out the bigger goal. Because sometimes we do things that don't actually tie to what we want or they're just busy work. I mean, we could fill up our time with endless tasks, but if we don't understand the purpose of where it's supposed to be going, then we could really just never stop working. And I think, I mean, when you run a business, there literally is endless. Sometimes my wife's like, she's trying to do something.

She's like, do you have work you could be doing so she doesn't feel bad? I'm like, I always have work to do. I know when people are late, they're like, I'm so sorry I'm late. I'm like, don't worry. I'm just going through emails.

Yasmine Nori

Like, I'm chilling. There's always something that I could do. Yeah, I think one of the big things people could start doing is before they open their laptop or their phone in the morning, just like, I like to go for a walk and just think of what I want to get done that day before you're, like, opening emails. Because if you don't know what you're focused on that day, people will tell you what you're focused on as soon as you open your email. And I find that if I, like, set myself up for, okay, almost like, thinking through how your day is going to go.

Katherine Lavery

Like, I have these calls. This is how I wanted them to go. This is my focus for the day. And then you start, like, literally look at your day and plan out what it is you want to get done. You're starting with yourself in mind and what your goals are instead of opening your email and suddenly other people have placed stuff on your to do list that you never asked for.

Yasmine Nori

I love that. And I definitely have heard a lot of people mention that as well. And it makes sense and it's interesting because I was actually on the east coast, so I'm still on east coast time and I'm on. I'm in LA. So I've been waking up very early.

Like, my dream is to be a morning person. Like, I'm not a night owl. I used to be a night owl, but I sleep now because I know the importance of sleep and recovery. But I'm like, man, I wish I was that person that would just naturally wake up at, like, 06:00 a.m., but, like, be functioning. Like, I can wake up at six, but sometimes it takes me.

I need to go for a walk and, like, you know, 30 minutes for me to wake up. But anyways, I've been on this east coast time and I've been taking advantage. I love it. So I've been waking up early and doing what you're saying, just being a little bit more thoughtful about. All right, what do I actually want to get done and writing it down on a paper in addition to my calendar?

But for some reason, to your point also, there's something about writing it that has been, like, very impactful. And I noticed today I hopped on the computer, which, you know, I cheated a little bit. I wanted to, like, send that one email on my mind and I saw myself and it's so interesting being in slack and then, like, responding to people. And I just went into auto mode and I was like, yasmin, stop you. It just sounds so basic.

But I'm just sharing because I got sucked into it. And sometimes you don't even realize it's so. Especially if you have people working at the time. Yeah. One thing I've started doing with my assistant because I will get caught up in the weeds of when she asked me stuff.

Katherine Lavery

And of course, there's, like, important things that need to get done, but there's also a lot of, like, minutiae that if I get pulled into, it will distract me. So we've just started setting up a Wednesday call where literally I'll be, go for a walk and she'll just go through, like, oh, what do you need for this? What do you need for this? And just getting everything out of the way instead of it pulling you into your week. And I find that if you can create some structure in your week for specific things like that, that get in the way of that flow, but you need to answer these questions like, these people aren't mind readers, then it does a lot better both for your flow and then other people being able to.

Yasmine Nori

Do their jobs, batching it. I know, I love that. And so going back to the business, so you've written a lot about some of the biggest lessons you took away from having a business partner. So you started the company, I believe you co founded it with someone, and then you eventually, you know, ended up, I believe, buying them out, or you guys sold the business and you no longer were working with this person. But looking back on your journey, what would be maybe some of the biggest lessons that you have from partnering with someone that you wish you knew when you were starting the business?

Katherine Lavery

Oh, man, I have a whole blog post about that. But I think one of the big things is that we make this really important decision of partnering with someone, which is like deciding to get married to someone business wise. And oftentimes it's like our first big decision and we don't really think it through. And so I like now if I was partnering again, I would think what happens when one person wants to get out? And so having an operating agreement is really crucial, and what needs to be in the operating agreement, it's basically like a prenup for your business.

So if one person decides to get out, and we hear this statistic, like 50% of marriages ended divorce, and I think, you know, 100% of businesses will change at some point. Someone will die, someone won't want to do it anymore. Maybe someone gets divorced, and the business has to be able to withstand that. And the best time to decide what happens is in the early days when you're on good terms and you are not having to negotiate through lawyers, because you've already, like, pre decided this. Now, our operating agreement was almost, we had one, but it was almost as bad as not having one at all because it was not well done.

And so in the blog post, which maybe we can link, I detail, like, here's all the things you want to think about. And in startups, there's this thing called vesting, which if I could do one thing differently, I would say this is even founders vest over time. So you might start a company together with, say, two people, and 50 50, you vest over four years. So if someone leaves after two years, they would only have vested half. Whereas in a lot of traditional or bootstrap businesses, you just get all that equity upfront because you don't know what you don't know at that point.

And so if someone leaves a year later, then they're walking out the door with 50% of the decision making power. And then it's like, well, what do you do then? And then a lot of times in the beginning, you set 50 50 because it seems fair, but it's not a piece of pie like this. You know, if it's unfair in the beginning, it's going to get more unfair as you go on. So you really have to think what makes sense for the business.

And I personally would never do a 50 50 again just because it's already. You have the first big decision in your business, and you've kind of just settled on 50 50 because it seems like a fair move. And I see this a lot with women and myself is like this partnering out of insecurity and thinking, and they give up equity in something that they created because they don't really. They've not never had a business or especially where it's female male, because it's like, okay, women will generally discount their skills. So let's just say there's a job posting and a man and woman look at it, and this has been proven.

If a woman doesn't hit every single qualification, she won't apply. Whereas the guy's like, I can figure it out and he'll apply. And so that happens with business equity of just like, oh, what seems fair? Whereas a guy going into it would not look at it from the same lens. And that's something that I've seen with friends and peers over the years.

And so I kind of wrote that article as, like, not looking at, like, male versus female, but, like, looking at it as an objective business. Like, what makes sense, who's bringing what to the table, skill sets, network, things like that. To really look at things fairly and don't feel out of insecurity, you have to settle for something less than you deserve. I love that. It's a very.

Yasmine Nori

Yeah, we'll link your article because it was very helpful. And what's so interesting, what you mentioned about vesting, I actually never thought about that from a founder perspective, obviously, like, employees or advisors, but I never thought. But that's a really good idea because it's such, like you said, it's a marriage, this person that you're building with. And to your point, the business continues to change. And, you know, from what I've heard from friends who have had different business differences and have left their partners, or, like, things are great when the business is making money.

Like, no one's in your face, like, everything's lovely, but, like, when shit hits the fan after that, it's like, you see people's true color. So you really need to just make sure you talk about everything. Like you said, if you were to decide to leave. If one person decides to leave, what does that look like? And getting in those details, I am curious to see how many business partnerships, you know, 50% of divorces happen, but, like, how many business partnerships happen?

I'm curious, but yes, I love that because I get a lot of people reaching out to me who think they actually need a co founder because they don't feel confident to your point. And b, ask, okay, if I found one, what are things I should consider? So I want to say one other thing is having, learning the skill of having hard conversations. I mean, one of the reasons that I probably made a bunch of mistakes is because I, I didn't like conflict and I would avoid hard conversations when I look back, like that was a mistake, because even when I knew that something was wrong, I would, like, avoid difficult conversations. And that is a skill that there's a handful of skills.

Katherine Lavery

I'm like, I wish I learned that earlier in life, but as a recovering people pleaser, it's something that I've had to essentially get some life lessons around and realize that it's better to have these hard conversations upfront than wait years and resentment builds and everything else. I love that you said that. I think having those difficult conversations in your personal and professional life, like, whatever you do, is such an important skill. And I'm curious, did you read any books? Or how have you practiced that?

Yasmine Nori

Or is it just a school of hard knocks, of reality made you kind of, like, learn that muscle because it's so important? I mean, I think it was the school of hard knocks and then, and then reading books over time and figuring out. You learn to have hard conversations, but you're not eloquent about it. And so then you have to figure out, how do you say something and say it, but say it in a way that's easier for the person to take on. And so much of it is practice.

So I'm like a firm believer. I mean, I'm also a recovering people pleaser and, you know, so many of us are. So I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I sometimes will. I do know the importance of having those difficult conversations. It could be with employees, vendors, you know, it's nonstop.

As a CEO, the list is endless of things that you need to really address. And sometimes I'll get caught up in my head of, like, how should I say it? And I'll fumble. I'll do it. Fumbling through it and doing it is still better than not.

And, like, you get the practice and so many amazing things have happened for me, sticking up, saying what's difficult and fumbling, and it still always worked its way out for the positive. So I just want to share that, because sometimes you're like, how do I say that? Or, well, now we have chat GBT to help us figure out how to say, I do use that. I'm like, this is what I want to say. How do I say it in a graceful way?

Oh, I love that. That's a great way to say it. Like, how do I say it in a graceful way? This is the role that I want you to take, and you can be as blunt as you can to the robot, and then they will figure out how to say it in a way that doesn't get you canceled. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, I love that. I love that. It's amazing. Well, I also want to end on talking about just the incredible business journey you've had. You sold the business, then you ended up buying the company back from private equity.

What happened there? And maybe some of the experiences from that journey of just buying your business back, I can't even imagine. Yeah, I feel like I've bought it twice because I bought it from my business partner in 2020, and then I sold it at the end of 22, and then I kind of just took some time away from trying to figure out what I was going to do next. So I was an advisor for the company for a year, and the private equity company that bought us, they were brand new. They were supposed to be like, oh, we're going to do private equity differently.

Katherine Lavery

We're going to buy these brands and run them better than you guys did. And spoiler alert, that did not happen. I don't know the full story, but all I know is they didn't get the round of funding that they were hoping to get or that they were promised, and so they essentially found out last minute. And we're like, okay, we're gonna be selling off the brands and, like, shutting the whole company down. They were like, do you want to buy it back?

And when they first approached me, I'm like, ah, I don't. You know, I don't know, is this going back in my life? I'd sold it. And so. And so when I sold it, you know, I had a team in place.

I also had a six month old at home. And so there's a lot of. The team has kids, and there's just a lot of pressure when you build a company. And when I started in 2015, I had no idea what I was doing, and so I think you take on water and all that's inexperience. You take on weight.

As far as, like, I don't know how to structure things properly. I didn't know who to partner with. And so you're making these mistakes and lessons, which, you know, in startups, they have this thing called tech technical debt, which is when they make, like, clunky workarounds in their code, and then they build on top of it, and they know someday they're going to have to go back and fix it. But today's not that day. And that's what I feel when you're, like, starting as an entrepreneur, you have all this inexperience of ways you're doing things.

And so when I got this offer to sell, I was like, okay, yeah. Like, it made sense for my personal life. And so when I went to buy it back, they'd already let go of the team, and I'd already gotten several of them jobs with, like, friends companies. I didn't know I was going to be buying it back. And so then six months later, I bought it back, and it was sort of this, oh, I wiped the slate clean.

There's no team here. I'm literally coming in. It's like I sold a house, and then I came in, and private equity has completely changed it. And some things were good. I've never seen a more organized Google Drive.

Yasmine Nori

Oh, my God. Amazing. Yeah. I was going to ask, what are some positives? Yeah, it's almost like these consultants came in and created all these spreadsheets for stuff that we had sort of tied together with duct tape.

Katherine Lavery

And so they did do some good things. There was a lot of mistakes that I saw them make that I've kind of been fixing over the last 60 days. But it almost was because I'm like, these people have mbas, and, like, they did all this stuff wrong. And I'm like, if I turn this thing around, do I get an MBA? Like a real one?

But because I've always been like, I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm just figuring it out. And now I feel like the slate's been wiped clean and all those mistakes and lessons, or, like, now I'm starting over but with a brand that I love. Because that was the one thing, like, during my 14 months off, I was thinking of, like, what's the next thing that I do? And I was like, okay, there's a lot of stuff I could do, but I was just like, I don't love that.

Don't love that. And I would always be like, oh, I loved, like, the brand best self and like, what would be possible with that? How do I recreate that again? Like, how do I create another brand like that? And so it just kind of ended up happening.

And at first I was gonna like, oh, do I want to run it? Do I want to be an operator? Am I going back? And so I just kind of journal on, how do I do it differently this time in a way that I enjoy. And then also, I think for a few years, it's like, oh, you buy it and then you grow it, and then you sell it, and it's like this revenue chasing thing of like, oh, I started this thing and I exited it, and now I feel like, okay, I did that and I exited, and then what I felt it was almost like I was lacking purpose because I love doing that.

But it's also, you build pressure and you were like, again, all this technical debt that it's hard to get out from under it. And now I feel like, okay, what if I just built a business that I loved and don't have to sell and products that I love and don't put all this pressure on growth that, like, growing it for what? And so that's kind of gave me a lot more freedom to explore and figure out where it is I want to go. So I feel like this is probably like chapter three of the company. I love that.

Yasmine Nori

Yeah, I mean, that's what a powerful place to be. And to your point of getting that pressure off and you making all the decisions and you growing it the way you want to, it's funny, I have many friends who have significantly bigger businesses than mine, and they're, you know, they're like, I don't know if I ever want to sell it because what am I going to do? This is like my baby. So it's just interesting to hear your perspective around, like, you sold it. You did all the things that, like, a business school case study would say it's like, successful, but you were, like, feeling that you lacked that purpose because you were still so passionate about the brand itself and what you got and the potential that it had.

So it's just very cool that you've now come here, you know, round three to start the business. And one thing you said that I thought was interesting, you said this time you want to do it differently so you can enjoy it. What does that look like for you? I know you mentioned, like, less pressure, you know, of selling, but anything else that you're doing differently this time around because you have so much experience. Like, I always think about the future of whether it's my company or another business I do 15 years from now.

Like, you have so much knowledge under your belt. So I'd love to hear how you're thinking about doing it in a way that you enjoy it more that you might have not done in the past. One of the things I thought about when I bought it back, I'm like, oh, this will be a good story because how often does this happen? It's actually more common than I knew when I was first buying it back. I've met a few people since, but you don't often get a chance to return to the company, but without the, we have, like, sales and the brand, but, you know, there's no team anymore.

Katherine Lavery

And, like, they were all happy in their new things. And so it was this chance of building from scratch again, but with a different focus and also just how do I do it? I don't want to have, like, a huge team. Like, I always find, like, the management of people to be the hardest part. But I liked having a team, obviously.

But I also like what's the most lean that I can run this thing and enjoy it. And, I mean, whenever I sold, like, tagpt wasn't even out yet. And I've been able to learn a lot from just, like, offloading mental load to AI to help me figure stuff out. Things that, again, we don't think about. But, like, an email that might have taken me 30 minutes to write a job description.

Like, it's much easier to use these tools to get something out in a third of the time. And so I'm kind of trying to take advantage and learn. Okay, is this a person needed? Is it a tool? And sort of thinking about it and measuring everything so that I'm getting the highest output with the lowest input.

Yasmine Nori

I love that. And one thing that you said, and this is when you had a team, or I don't know if it's maybe the team now or your past team, but you're really good about measuring things to see if they're productive. And you're saying for everyone that's on the team, like, I want to make sure they're doing at least five times. I don't know the way you phrased it, but, like, the output is five times in what you're paying them, per se. And you mentioned, you know, there's some roles where they're not directly related to sales.

Right. So how do you think about productivity and outcome? And, like, because I'm sure you've been thinking about that now as you're building the team and you're like, okay, is it worth a person? Can they bring the value? Or should I think about it from a tool perspective?

But I'd love to hear how you think about that. Yes. This is. Sounds a little harsh, but something in our team retreats is, we would say, is everyone on the team has a purpose. Like, this isn't a government jobs program.

Katherine Lavery

We just hire people. It's like everyone needs to serve their role. And. Yeah, not. And I try to, like, say, because I remember whenever I was an architect and I would see how much I would.

The hours I'd be billed out for, and I wasn't making anywhere close to that because I didn't understand business and, like, you know, margin or whatever. And so one of the things I would think about is, like, if you're paying someone and the value they bring is exactly the amount you're paying them, it's almost like a wash, because whereas if. If they're going above and beyond, not even just like, a customer service person, a lot of people will say, oh, I'm gonna get a robot. I came back to the company and there was, like, a robot AI customer support person, which I. Yes, I guess is cheaper, but, like, is annoying as hell to deal with.

Even I was just like, is this. I still, like. I, like, fired the robot or whatever it was right away, but I'm like, I still don't know if I was a person behind that because I felt like, until I see value in, like, a customer support person that actually is speaking with customers and understanding their pain points and what they're going through and doesn't annoy a customer because then a customer will never return. And so there's different parts of your team which you can't tie a direct revenue to, but it's like an ethos within the team. It's like, how is my customer going to be served talking to a robot versus talking to a real person?

And so it's more of making sure that there's a credit surplus. You know, if you're. You can't go into a bank and take money out that you don't already have. And so with friendships or relationships or anything, you have to make deposits all the time. Like, what am I doing to serve this relationship?

And then when you have to ask for something, there's plenty of money in there. And I look at all relationships, whether it's like business, personal, is like, how am I depositing into this. And that's a two way street. So if I'm not showing up for the employees, they're not going to show up for me. And so when I said, like, the government jobs thing, that's kind of a two way street.

So how are we showing up and making sure our people, like, way outperform? Because we are bootstrapped. And it's not like we have investors giving us money, so we have to make sales in order to turn on the lights sort of thing. And so it was more of just how we think about hiring, working. I don't ever want to be like, oh, that's not in my job description.

Especially in the early days. It's just like, you just have to figure stuff out. Yeah. And there's some people that love that and have that, like, entrepreneurial spirit and some people that are like, okay, this might not be the right fit for you, but Katherine, I feel like I could talk to you hours about all things business. I'm so glad you have your blog and just, I'm so excited about this new phase of the business and, you know, everything you're building.

Yasmine Nori

But thank you so much for being with us today. Yeah, it was great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Yasmin

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