Who Are We Afraid of Having Too Many Kids? & The Rise of the Bergens

This episode delves into concerns surrounding high fertility rates among certain communities and their broader societal impacts.

1. Some cultural strategies promote high fertility but discourage economic and technological engagement, posing potential risks to societal stability.
2. There is a growing divide between communities that embrace technology and those that reject it, potentially leading to speciation.
3. Behavioral patterns observed in different environments (secret society events vs. Las Vegas) reveal significant lifestyle and productivity contrasts.
4. The potential for technological advancements may further widen the gap between productive and unproductive communities.
5. The episode stresses the importance of embracing diversity and technological engagement to prevent societal stagnation and decline.

1. Introduction to Fertility Concerns

The hosts introduce the topic of differential fertility rates among various communities and its implications. They discuss the balance between fertility, technology, and economic productivity. Malcolm Collins: "It's just planning for the future, because it's a truism and there's nothing that can be done about it."

2. The Cultural and Technological Divide

Discussion on how different cultural practices impact societal roles and productivity, labeling unproductive, high-fertility communities as "Bergens." Simone Collins: "It's like these people wouldn't know how to interact if they wanted to."

3. Speciation and Society

Exploration of how distinct behavioral patterns may lead to cultural and genetic speciation, affecting future societal structures. Malcolm Collins: "You get a mutation that changes, that leads to portions of the population to begin to genetically isolate themselves."

4. Implications for the Future

Reflections on the long-term implications of current trends in fertility and technology on the stability and structure of future societies. Malcolm Collins: "And they'll decide that my descendants need to go."

1. Embrace Technological Engagement: Actively engage with new technologies to ensure societal and economic relevance.
2. Promote Educational Opportunities: Encourage education across all communities to bridge the productivity gap.
3. Support Diverse Economies: Build economies that can accommodate various lifestyles without compromising overall societal health.
4. Cultivate Open Dialogues: Foster communication between differing communities to promote understanding and cooperation.
5. Invest in Children: Focus on raising children with a balanced view of technology and community engagement.

In this thought-provoking discussion, Malcolm and Simone Collins explore the concept of behavioral isolation and its potential impact on the future of human evolution. They examine the differences between two distinct groups - the technophilic, industrially productive "elite" and the more traditional, less technologically engaged "Bergens" - and discuss how their divergent lifestyles and values could lead to a form of speciation. The hosts also delve into the importance of technological advancement and pluralism in ensuring the survival and autonomy of various cultural groups, and emphasize the need for a pronatalist alliance that rejects supremacist ideologies. Throughout the conversation, they stress the significance of industrial output and technophilia in maintaining cultural independence and avoiding parasitic relationships with the state.

People

Malcolm Collins, Simone Collins

Content Warnings:

Discussion of cultural and economic disparities, speculative genetic and societal outcomes.

Malcolm Collins
Hello, Simone. We had a reporting team over at our house from France that are doing a documentary, and they're really nice people. Yeah, they asked a question that I thought was really interesting to us, which was, are you concerned about some groups being like, really high fertility? Are there groups that you want to be lower fertility that scare you in some way? And this is a complicated question because the core answer is no, not really.

But it's important to explain why the answer is no, because I think to a lot of people who are aware of, we are genetic realists, like, I realize that there are things that are heritable within human populations, and we do have a level of concern where I'm like, it's not really concerned. It's just planning for the future, because it's just a truism and there's nothing that can be done about it. That one of the cultural strategies that is very good at maintaining high fertility rates in the world today are cultures that disengage from technology, that engage in practices that make them economically less productive. Because generally in the developed world, the less wealth you have, the more kids you have, and that maintain their culture intergenerationally with high fidelity. That is, they don't allow their kids to be deconverted through xenophobia, through dehumanizing other groups.

And so this cultural strategy has co evolved across many differentiated cultural groups. You'll see it in some muslim groups, you'll see it in some christian groups. You'll see it in some jewish groups. You'll see it in some buddhist groups. And invariably, these groups typically have much higher fertility rates than the individuals near them.

And so people would think, oh, then what you must want to do is lower the fertility rate of these communities. Would you like to know more? And to me, that only really matters insofar as you live in a socialist system where groups are specifically building hacks that allow a group that is completely economically parasitic to high fertility, it can be damaging to other individuals into state structures in a way that is intrinsically unsustainable and will eventually lead to the collapse of the state. So people might hear this and be like, what do you mean? Okay, imagine hypothetically, there was a country that narrowed a group within it out, and this group was incredibly high fertility, but economically totally unproductive, technologically totally unproductive, and really did nothing to even contribute to the country's military or defensibility.

Right. This group had tripled the fertility of their neighboring groups. Eventually, they would be the majority population in that country. Then the country intrinsically collapses because that country then cannot be, it cannot produce the additional goods and the additional wealth and the additional technology which is being siphoned by this high fertility community. And so either it ends this system or it eventually collapses.

There is no other alternative. The only other alternative I can think of is some faction within this parasitic community goes, oh shit, we shouldn't be doing this anymore because this is unsustainable and we're going to be the dominant group. And so we need to start doing things like start engaging in the military, we need to start engaging more with technological productivity. We need to start working more. But then it's, then they're not like that group at all.

And typically, even if a faction of this community does end up adopting these practices, fertility wise, they're going to be out competed by the individuals who just did nothing but pump out babies. So it really doesn't work unless you cut the state umbilical cord, which ends up saving everyone because even the parasite ends up dying when the host dies. Yeah, because no one's going to, no one's going to bankroll the parasites lifestyle anymore. Yeah. So I do have some concern about communities like that.

And they exist within many countries. Many people might think, oh, you're describing x group in my country, but the group that you are thinking of is probably really focused on your country. And so you will see this as an attack just as, actually, I don't want to name any groups here. I'm just saying because then people are like, oh, so see, he was talking about that group. But these people exist in France just as much as they exist in the United States, for example.

But they're everywhere. So I do, they do pose a threat in that regard. But if you live in a country like the US, where I hope, or any long term country, that's really going to be a player like long term in terms of human history, now that humans are super mobile, you're going to be dealing with countries that are much lower weight. That is, they do not have these big state welfare systems. And so they might only be charter cities where you end up getting people attracted to, but they will be countries that are much lower weight in those countries when you have sort of true capitalism.

I'm really not concerned about these groups at all. At all. And people are like, whoa, whoa, why aren't you concerned about them? Because they're going to have such high populations in the future. And the answer is in a future where these communities, and you do see this within these communities are intergenerationally getting dumber.

They're selecting for lower iq within their community because the individuals that are higher. I are more prosocial, typically get deconverted from these communities at higher rates. They get dumber intergenerationally, and they're getting more technophobic, both biological, like a genetic level, and at a cultural level. Intergenerationally, they are not a threat to families that are, through genetic alteration, becoming more. And why kids will have technology we can't even dream of.

So you're talking three or four generations down the line, likely three or four standard deviations. IQ higher than the average person today. And with, like, automated, as I say, like, AI kill drones. Like, they are not afraid of people who are coming at them with sticks and aks. And this technological gap is widening.

And it's one of the things we're actually already seeing in society today. And this is where I wanted to talk about something that you noticed, Simone. So there were two environments we went to recently. One is a secret society. It's called dialogue.

She used to be managing director of it. It was originally founded by Peter Thiel and Arn Hoffman. And it's a great group. It's for, like, when I see secret society is an invitation only event for people who are seen that's likely to influence the future of the human rights. Or who already do.

Simone Collins
There are different subsets or who already do. Yeah, there's different. So this was one environment we were at, and then in another environment we were at, we went to Vegas for a conference. And so we were hanging around, like the typical type of person who goes to Vegas and stays at a Vegas hotel. Can you talk about the differences in behavioral patterns you noticed in these two communities?

Yeah, it was so interesting. So I need to always be moving, meaning that I need to go to a gym every morning. I can't walk around the streets. And in both instances, when we were at dialogue, we were in the middle of the desert most recently. And when we were at this conference in Vegas, we were in Vegas.

So at five in the morning, I'm not going to walk around the streets of Vegas. So I look for a gym in Vegas. There were no gyms open, at least at the hotels where we were. And I actually walked to other hotels and tried to say that I was a guest there and asked them where their gyms were. And they're like, oh, yeah, our gym doesn't open until 09:00 a.m.

Which is insane. Like, at Paris. I asked that. I walked over to Paris after our hotel didn't people just weren't out. Weren't up.

These are not people who wake up in the morning and go work out, not in Vegas. Nobody was, like, out around jogging. No one. No, no. You go to the dialogue.

So then you go to dialogue at the hotel gym in the morning. Every single morning, the gym is packed, and I'm getting up at 430 to go work out in the morning, and it is packed full of other dialogue errs. And only people from the conference, mind you, like anyone else in the hotel, if there was any, they certainly weren't there. And these people are simultaneously just like me on their phones doing work, checking in, having short but very professional chit chat sessions with people as they come in and leave, and actually working out pretty freaking hard, like doing full. This is my weight regimen.

This is whatever. It's not just like, faffing about. And it was such a difference in selection there where you could really see. And I brought this up to Malcolm and just, I was like, you can't experience these different selective bottleneck kind of areas or zones in the United States and not start to think that we're speciating. Because when we just walked down the streets in Las Vegas, the way people looked, the way people moved, the way people talked was so different from an event like dialogue.

It's like these people wouldn't know how to interact if they wanted to, which. Was elevate what Simone is saying here. There were noticeable physiological differences between these two populations that were much larger than the physiological differences I see between ethnic groups. Oh, 100%. Yeah.

No, this makes ethnicity, the concept of ethnicity a joke. Keep in mind, in all of these, like in Vegas, you have tourists as one of the top tourist destinations in the world. You have people from all around the world. Just like at dialogue, they're very careful to try to be with the society as inclusive and diverse as possible. So you have every different type of group, but there is definitely, like a clear cluster of what these people are.

Malcolm Collins
And I have a word that I want to use for this other group. Okay. Okay. Bergens. So in the trolls movie, there's this villainous race that then becomes good guys.

But they, these people, when I looked at them, like, the average. The average Vegas visitor or the average dialogue. Average Vegas visitor. Okay, look like a Bergen. The they.

And I'll put some videos on the screen here, and people will be like, oh, I know the type of person you're talking about. I know the Bergens. I've seen the Bergens. I'm looking this up because I don't watch Bergen trolls and I will make it.

Simone Collins
Oh, God. Okay, so it's. It's a rotund, troll. Like, actually trollish looking troll with bad teeth, somewhat malformed, but also meticulously styled in a way where they think that they have a look, but it's a gross look, trashy. And so what was interesting to me about this differential is something that you highlighted here, and it's something that you see in the data already, is that the middle income group is a really low fertility group.

Malcolm Collins
By the way, if you're wondering what people look like at dialogue, like us, I guess I'd say, like, they look. And this is true across ethnicities, right? They look healthy, fit, but not in a muscular or hyper, either hyper masculine or hyper feminine way. Just like that kind of Silicon Valley venture capitalist like, lean, healthy way for the most part, but not too lean and not too thick. Just right, because they're all very optimized.

Simone Collins
They're extremely optimized. And they also do not dress. They do not dress in a showy way. They do not dress in a sloppy way. They dress in the most inconspicuous.

But you know it when you see it way. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I say look up a picture of what venture capitalists look like, and you'll immediately know this crowd. Right?

Yeah. Like Mark Zuckerberg, that kind of look. Whereas you wouldn't know unless when you. Talk about speciation, one really interesting thing is, and I've talked about this before, there's two ways that speciation ends up happening within a species. You either get geographic isolation, like a river flows between them, genetically isolating the populations that previously weren't genetically isolated or like, continents drift apart, or you get behavioral species isolation.

Malcolm Collins
In behavioral isolation, something changes. You get a mutation that changes, that leads to portions of the population to begin to genetically isolate themselves. And this would be like, one group becomes nocturnally active and the other group isn't nocturnally active and so never awake at the same time when they would mate, or they build mating practices. And we have to think this is exactly what is happening with these groups. Keep in mind the, we'll say the dialoger group.

Simone Collins
They're going to elite universities where they're only mixing with and meeting with other people. Then they're going to elite businesses where they're only mixing with and meeting with specific people who also into the elite universities who also have these really high credentials and insanely high levels of conscientiousness. And then on the flip side, you have this other group of people that is mixing with an entirely different population. So there is no. There's no touching.

There's no touching. See this in the data? If you look at fertility rates, the two high fertility groups are the incredibly wealthy and the incredibly poor. And then in the middle, you have nothing breeding. That where you have that you right there in a graph.

Malcolm Collins
That is behavioral isolation. Historically speaking, the behavioral isolation wasn't that bad because you didn't have child support. But universally enforced child support increases behavioral isolation because people stop mating with out groups. And this is what we talked about. You're not going to get the genetic drift between the incredibly economically successful population to the rest of the population, which historically you would have.

Where women would change. Yeah, I guess what's, what used to happen was like some men from, we'll say the dialogue group would. With some women from the Vegas group. Yes. To better understand the sex addiction outbreak, we've been running tests on chimpanzees.

C
You can see that this entire community of specimens are getting along normally, some pairing off, others on their own. But now, see this chimp here? An average, normal adult male blending in seamlessly with the others. Now watch. We're going to give it a lot of money.

Malcolm Collins
Go ahead. My God. Yes.

Simone Collins
They'd have some fun in Vegas. They'd have a kid and then, whatever, they'd have several kids. But now those men are just polyamorous and only still sleeping with and not having kids with other very high power women who are also willing to be polyamorous or unwittingly polyamorous, as was the case with Andrew Huberman in that big New York Times explosion, came out that he was simultaneously dating all these high power women. So that's more what's happening now. There's not that mixing in between the groups, which.

Yeah, you're right. Makes it even more profound and more of an echo chamber. Yeah. And I think another thing that you mentioned here, which I thought was really interesting, is that these groups wouldn't know how to talk to each other if they met, which is the practices, like gambling, for example. I do not understand why you would do something where you have a net negative utility outcome.

No, see, I disagree. Like a lot of these, the people in this group have their poker groups. They love. They freaking love poker. Poker.

Such a thing. Simone, keep in mind, that is not the same thing. Yes. Not slot machines. That's not the same thing at all.

Malcolm Collins
It doesn't have a net negative utility outcome. So if you are playing poker with a group of friends that has a net neutral utility outcome because you don't have the house. I see. Yeah, because. Yeah, yeah.

Simone Collins
Like, the people we know in our circles who gamble do so in poker tournaments or among groups of friends and not at casinos. Yeah, for the most part. So consider the difference in that behavioral pattern here. Right? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins
But even like, the things that they engage with, the ways that you would talk to them, you are increasingly getting behavioral isolation between these communities. And I should. More irreconcilable. I am not saying this is a good thing. I am not saying I want this for society.

I think it could be a pretty bad thing. I think it's a terrible thing. And you know where else you can see it these days, and this is so pronounced is when you look at streaming platforms and there's this like huge segment of shows where you're like, I don't get it. Who is watching this? Which is really interesting.

Yeah, no, I know. If you want to see what we mean when we talk about this, go on YouTube and sort for most views, the type of person who watch our channel. Yeah, it would be like, I don't like, what are these? Why would somebody watch people, like, rolling a tire around? What?

Who is this appealing to? And people are like, oh, this is for children. And you're like, yeah, but clearly not all of this is children. Like, how are these getting these most viewed statuses? And as a result, I am concerned for these communities.

I am concerned for their place in the future of the species. If they continue to genetically isolate, like that's going forward 500 years, a scary thing. We may be able to resolve any sort of long term damage that comes from this through genetic technology. Wouldn't you say? Those groups are concerned about us, that we are these unfeeling, unpencial neck glasses wearing.

Simone Collins
These are the people who also see what we care about and what we value and are horrified. I don't know. Yeah, I can see why. What I say is like, functionally, these groups aren't threatening to us, but I guess we are threatening to them. And this is something always here.

Malcolm Collins
There's individual, one of the individuals on YouTube is like, humanity is going to divide into the cyborgs and the traditionalists. And he said the cyborgs will try to stamp out the traditionalists. And I'm like, why would the cyborgs try to stamp out the traditionalists? The traditionalists are not threats to the cyborgs. The cyborgs are threats to the traditionalists.

The traditionalists need the cyborgs to not come to exist. If they want to maintain economic and political power, because as the cyborgs come to exist, they will control an increasing amount of wealth. And even if they are isolated into a few city states, right, they still will control so much of the world's industry that they will have most of the negotiating power in most of the world's political deals. And the cyborgs really don't concern themselves with the non cyborg. They just aren't that relevant in so far, except insofar as those groups say, you are a threat, and I will work to stamp you out.

And in that case, you're like, okay, either we need to move to a position where we're protected from those groups, or we need to. But I don't see any reason to outwardsly project or do anything that would make us threatening to those groups. And again, we do not see these as groups that should not be reproducing. As far as I'm concerned, aside from what you pointed out about certain groups that will cause political instability and their own society and their own group to fall because of the way that they're living, the only people that we don't want reproducing are the people who don't want to reproduce. If you don't want to have kids, and if you don't want kids and you don't feel like you can raise kids and that you're going to hate them and that, whatever, don't have kids.

Simone Collins
That it's so simple. Someone commented on our video, or one of our videos recently, saying something along the lines of, I'm going to make the world a better place by not having kids. And I'm like, yes, you are. That's perfect. Exactly.

Malcolm Collins
Yeah, probably is. It's something that is interesting. You're talking about this whole pencil necked aesthetic and everything like that. When you're like, how could these pencil necked nerdy strategies possibly compete with other strategies? Right?

So a community that traditionally went through the pencil neck strategy was the jewish community. You look at the cultural stereotypes, the OG pencil necks. If you look at, like, the South park descriptions of Jews, like the jewish stereotypes, it's like, like nerdy, can't play sports. Oh, well, I grew up in this. I really don't care for it.

E
I come from a jewish family, which, of course, you already know because Kyle's from the same family. I like to read, and I have these polyps on the backs of my hands. I don't know what they are. Oh, and I hope one day to be an investment banker. I wouldn't dice all that are available.

I usually prefer the plastic ones because these give me splinters. I realize we're in the mountains, but do we have to freeze today? Now, Kyle, I need you to be quiet in my class. You need to be able to concentrate. Concentration is the key to succeeding in my class.

Maybe we'll have to send them to concentration camp. Ah, dammit. Dammit. Damn it. Card me up.

Malcolm Collins
Oh my. I haven't seen a jew run like. That since Poland, 1938, dude. Okay. And yet you look at the, like the Yom Kippur wars or something like.

Simone Collins
That, where they stomp forces, revenge of the nerds. Much larger than them. I think people, when they remember the Yom Kippur war, they are thinking of Israel today with its military today being up against its neighbors in Israel today. Yeah, it has a ton of money that has gone into its military. It's a very modernized military fighting force.

D
That was not true at the time of the non Kompur war. The invading armies outnumbered the Israelis at a ratio of 100 to one in manpower and ten to one in armor and artillery. And since the bulk of the israeli army is made up of reservists, it took two days for them to mobilize and deploy. To give you an example of one specific flank that they were dealing with in the south, the numbers were even more lopsided. Five egyptian infantry divisions with nearly 100,000 soldiers, a 1300 tanks and 2000 artillery pieces launched themselves across the Suez canal against just some 450 poorly trained israeli reservists.

And they were being attacked from all sides at once. It was a surprise. So they didn't know this was happening. And all the sides that were attacking them had plenty of time to prepare and they stomped them. We'll never get over people who say that Israel should give back land that they took during that war.

Uh, no, they won that land fair and square. The idiots who attacked them lost it fair and square. Look at the impact they have on the geopolitical landscape today. They stomp even much larger, much bigger powers. You look at groups that outnumber them, that come and attack them.

Malcolm Collins
And these other groups are all about strengths and they're from cultures, they're all about how tough you are and everything like that. And they just get smashed by a culture that was selecting for pencil neck nerds. Like why? Because it turns out that in the world of technology, how good you are at fighting. We had an episode recently that touched on some of these topics on, like, the cultures that Andrew Tate is from and that he tries to elevate about how you want to be, like the toughest person.

It's like how tough you are. Doesn't matter when your opponent is an automated drone with a gun on it, or worse, a gene engineered virus that is sterilizing populations that have outwardly threatened their neighbors. We are entering a world where your fists just don't matter that much anymore.

And we've already entered that world to an extent. So to ask why I am not concerned about these communities and why I think it is always a bad idea to try to limit fertility of groups that you disagree with, it is, I guess it's a thing, right? If I came from a different culture and my strategy was different, if I was taking a traditionalist, technophobic strategy, the way I beat my neighbors is by sterilizing them. If you're taking a. Because you're going to be at the same tech level as these other people, and so then it's the bigger number wins.

Right. But if you're going with any sort of a pluralistic strategy that is incredibly technophilic, the last thing you want to do is to try to sterilize other groups that are taking different strategies than you. That makes you a threat to those groups, which makes wiping you out necessary for those groups. Oh, but also, if you're trying to wipe out those groups, you're eliminating the very thing that you value, which is. Diversity within the human population.

I think that the strategy that I am adopting and that will end up winning, will end up winning. And I can be provably wrong here. Right. That's the thing. Now, if the strategy that we are raising our kids within is not economically productive, is not technophilic, is not really engaged with technology, if it turns out that engaging with technology doesn't give groups in the future an enormous industrial and military advantage, then my key theses are wrong, and my group deserves to go extinct.

Right? Yeah. And so also those who think that we're taking a dumb approach or who do not like what we're doing, don't worry. If you think we're going to fail, then there's nothing wrong with us because we're going to fail and we won't be a problem for you. Yeah.

Simone Collins
Everyone wins. Everyone wins. Yeah. And I think that this is. I don't remember what I was going to say here.

Malcolm Collins
Do you have any further thoughts on this? I would point out just one additional thing, is anyone who believes that there are certain groups that should not be reproducing is truly, by definition, a eugenicist. Because they believe in coercive population level adjustments to certain groups. And we are actually quite against eugenics. So there's that.

Simone Collins
I would just add, it's just not something that we believe in. And in the end, I think anyone, people, I think also often, maybe I'm taking a dumb direction with this, but they associate some form of social or cultural darwinism with eugenics as well, of let the fittest survive, blah, blah, blah. But you can't have real evolution when you are artificially messing with a system. So anyone who actually believes in evolution or actually wants the fittest to win should not be intervening, because only physics only, like, literally the technical mechanical limits on reality have the right, have dominion to determine who is fit and who is not. You as a human do not have that right.

Malcolm Collins
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And this is what really disgusted me was Europeans laws that limit reproductive choice in order to sterilize groups like us. Because as one reporter in Europe, they were like, if you do this in x many generations, what if your children are much smarter than everyone else? And it's like, why is that a problem? Are smart people today?

Would our country be better off if. We just didn't have smart people really raising our crime rate? The adventure of penicillin, if we didn't have Einstein, if we didn't like, does society get better when you get rid of all the smart people? Everyone is better off if you have some group that is ultra intelligent, so long as that group doesn't have a mindset that they want to get rid of people who are different from them. And I think that fundamentally shows how this urban monoculture has been able to maintain the harmony it maintains is by acting as if everyone really is exactly the same.

And through acting that way, through acting as if there's no real differences in any individual, they're able to keep this cultural detente. And when we talk about things like genetic selection, like we do as our kids, and they project that forwards, they're like, oh, that could create humans that are so different from other humans that our system of just pretending like everyone's actually the same won't work anymore. How does society work then? And it's, oh, I have a great idea. How about, like, we accept and value diversity?

That thing that you've been telling everyone that you were doing, but you never were actually doing, because everyone benefits in that system. Both the super intelligent, they benefit because no one is trying to threaten them, right? And everyone else, because of the technology and the industry that the because keep in mind, what is industry? People hear industry, and they say factories. Industry is you having a diversity of food on your plates.

Industry is your grandparents not dying when they get old because there's no money? Like, when people hear about, like, industry or economics, what they think is, oh, they're just talking about wealth. No, we're talking about people not starving to death, okay? We're talking about the United States not turning into a Haiti. Most of the metropolitan area is controlled by around 150 criminal groups, which the government has failed to stop.

F
Their members terrorize the population through kidnapping, murder, sexual violence, looting, and burning down homes. According to the United nations, criminal groups killed over 2000 people and kidnapped more than 1000 others during the first half of 2020. Almost 200,000 people have fled their homes since 2022 due to violence. Many lack access to adequate food, water, shelter, education, healthcare, and other basic services. Oh, and don't even come at me.

D
With that nonsense that Haiti is only poor because it had an unfair loan. You know what other country had an unfair large loan it had to pay? Yeah, Germany. Okay, you don't get to just pull out that card when it fits your narrative. Okay?

Malcolm Collins
You can look at something like Haiti, and I think it was 89% of college grads would immigrate out of the country. You do that for three or four generations. Ignore the genetics. Just culturally, you're in a horrible situation that was almost guaranteed to end where it's ended. That is what happens when you strip industry from society.

So we wrote a piece for aporia and the most, and we were like, we were talking about our solution and the religious thing that we were building. And the most common criticism of that piece was, why does industry matter for your culture? Like, why do you care so much about technophilia and industry as a cultural group? Why is it important to keep that intergenerationally? Why not just go back to one of these older systems and fix fertility rates by disengaging from technology and industry?

And the answer to me was just so obvious, I don't know how they didn't see it. If you are a technologically or industrially unproductive group, you live at the whims and privilege of your neighbors. 100% are high fertility, but they are only allowed to maintain their culture and their cultural strategy because their neighbors have decided to allow them to do it. Yeah, they live entirely at the whims of the US government and in general, voters being okay with them living their lives the way they do. Exactly.

Having cultural autonomy is completely dependent on your level of industry and technophilia when contrasted with neighboring populations. So if you find a cultural strategy that keeps your fertility rate high, and it is not within the global ecosystem on par with or greater than other systems in terms of technological output or industrial output, it will eventually, you will eventually be living at the whim of somebody else. Somebody else saying, I will allow you to keep living the way you're living. Yeah. And I think there are plenty of historical examples that people can look at of groups that were permitted to exist because they provided useful products and services for the rest of society.

Simone Collins
That society was like, I'm not going to mess with them because I want that stuff. I want. I need that thing. Yeah, this is. It's.

Malcolm Collins
It is interesting to me that people could be so blind to the utility of industry and technophilia. And it's also why when I look at these groups that are like, no, just be tough. Just go back to old masculine things and Unga bunga your way through. It's okay. Unga Bungas, like, you may exist in the future, but you will live at the whimsical of the cyborgs, as the one person calls, at the whims of the people who, through technological engagement and willingness to try to intergenerationally improve you.

And I hope when what the pronatalist movement is really about is creating an alliance of those technophilic and industrial productive cultural groups so that we do not hinder each other's goals and that we can create, you know, what we call the covenant of the children of man, an alliance among us that we will never impose our values on the other groups, that we will never, even if we disagree with them, whether they take some incredibly technophobic stance and they go back to a really old way of living, like Amish or whatever, like that. I never want my descendants threatening a group like the Amish, which are one of no threat to us. Two do not live off of the state infrastructure at all. They are, they don't even like, take, like welfare. They don't take.

They are almost the ideal, I would say, technophobic cultural group, because the only way that they are parasitic is in relying on not engaging with the draft and not engaging with the military. And even then I would just say, then, just don't bother them. Don't bother them. It's really important to me that the winning group, the people who comes out of this as this industrial and scientifically productive group, has pluralism so ingrained in who they are that they never go and try to stamp out the others. And why is that important?

Why is that existentially important? Because if you don't ingrain that in them, if you allow racists or supremacists to come into this community and one faction of them becomes smarter than the faction that I'm a part of, that is they end up having better genetic technology or better technological technology, and they end up a few standard deviations smarter than my descendants, and they'll decide that my descendants need to go. Because if they. Right now, if you look down on other ethnic groups due to maybe marginal differences in various proficiencies, if those differences became actually large and meaningful through technological engagement, those individuals are going to look at my descendants the way that they looked at, unless my descendants happen to be in the most winning of winning groups, which I think is an unrealistic expectation, the way that they look at other ethnic groups today. Which is why we have to be like, the one area we cannot really brudge on.

The pronatalist alliance is not allowing these individuals in because as they become technologically and genetically uplifted, they become a threat to everyone else if they have any of these sort of pre encoded, either culturally or in any other capacity, beliefs about certain groups being superior to other groups and having the right to impose their value systems on other cultural groups. There you have it, Malcolm. Love you to Desmond. I love you too.

Simone Collins
Okay, I'm going to get the kids up for.