Hurkle-Durkle, Tradwives, and Hikikomori for White Women: Exploring Internet Subculture with Suzy Weiss

This episode dives into the complexities and nuances of internet subcultures, including 'Hurkle-Durkle', 'Tradwives', and 'Hikikomori' as they manifest in Western contexts.

1. 'Hurkle-Durkle' and 'Hikikomori' are being co-opted by Western cultures, reflecting a shift towards embracing forms of social withdrawal and sedentary lifestyles.
2. 'Tradwives' represents a complex interplay between traditional gender roles and modern societal expectations, often critiqued and vilified while also celebrated in certain communities.
3. These subcultures are part of a broader dialogue about wellness and self-care, which is increasingly being questioned and redefined.
4. The episode highlights the role of the internet in forming 'echo chambers' where these subcultures thrive and evolve.
5. There is a critical view on how these movements might be contributing to a broader societal shift towards isolation and a decrease in community-oriented lifestyles.

1: Introduction to Subcultures

Suzy Weiss discusses the repackaging of medieval science in modern wellness cultures and introduces 'Hurkle-Durkle' and 'Hikikomori'. Suzy Weiss: "Gomori, for those who don't know, are mostly men in Japan who are shut-ins."

2: Tradwives and Internet Echo Chambers

Exploration of 'Tradwives', comparing it to modern corporate families and its impact on perceived gender roles. Suzy Weiss: "Tradwives are the girl bosses of the home."

3: Impact of Subcultures on Wellness and Self-Care

Discussion on how these subcultures affect perceptions of wellness and self-care, potentially leading to societal shifts towards isolation. Suzy Weiss: "The era of wellness is ending... It's like the death rattle of wellness culture."

1. Engage Critically with Internet Subcultures: Understand the origins and implications before adopting their ideologies.
2. Balance Online and Offline Interactions: Ensure that digital engagements do not fully replace real-world interactions.
3. Maintain Physical Activity: Resist the normalization of sedentary lifestyles promoted by some subcultures.
4. Explore Diverse Viewpoints: Avoid echo chambers by interacting with a variety of perspectives.
5. Promote Community Engagement: Counteract isolating trends by fostering community connections and activities.

In this fascinating discussion with journalist Suzy Weiss, Malcolm and Simone dive into a range of internet subcultures and trends, from "Hercule Derkle" and the death of wellness culture to tradwives and the rise of unwellness influencers. They explore how ancient concepts like Wu Wei and Shabbat are being misappropriated to justify modern hedonism and the implications of a society where basic needs can be met without leaving one's bedroom. The conversation also touches on the contradictions of feminism, the allure of communal living, and the future of reproduction in an age of womb transplants and artificial wombs. Throughout the episode, the trio grapples with the ways in which these online phenomena reflect broader cultural shifts and the search for meaning in an increasingly atomized world.

People

Suzy Weiss, Simone Collins, Malcolm Collins

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Suzy Weiss

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Suzy Weiss
Yeah. There's also like this weird way that medieval, debunked science is being repackaged in the wellness world. Gomori, for those who don't know, are mostly men in Japan who are shut ins. They want, they don't leave their room for years. Sometimes at a time, their parents bring them food.

They play video games. They're totally addicted to their screens. Japan is ten years ahead of us and everything. Yeah, fast food tastes like food enough, but it's not food. And video games feel like problem solving and engaging, but it's really not doing those things.

And he described it as this slack noose around his neck where he technically got all of the things fulfilled. He was talking to people. He was eating. He was alive in the world, but at this really not at, what's the word I'm looking for. Like, not at the level of, of actually living, but not enough that he would go and change it.

Like, it wasn't dire enough. Would you like to know more? Hi, everyone. We are so excited to have our favorite writer on the podcast, Susie Weiss. She's with the free press.

Simone Collins
You can find her on Twitter xnooziewice. And she has written some amazing pieces. We first discovered her through this mind blowing article on spoonies, but more recently she wrote about a different type of kind of self care culture that we thought would be really fun to discuss today, particularly referring to Hercule Durkle as a trending term, but also like bedrot and quiet quitting show up in the article as well. Yeah, we'd love to talk about this. With you because there's so much going on here.

Suzy Weiss
We're really gonna, we're gonna get into trad wives. We're gonna get, everyone should buckle up for a ride through the Internet. You have this great quote in there. Didn't you say something like tradwives are the girl bosses of the home or something? Tradwives are the girl bosses of.

They're not different. They are villainized women. Hundred percent that we're trying to get. What they want, which is, I thought, what we all want, but I guess not. Yeah, well, they're having it all in the home.

Simone Collins
Yeah. You go what you want. Well, it's so interesting the way that society is so politicized that every subculture has a team. And depending on what team you are in, that subculture is either an evil or good subculture from the perspective of. Each team, the hustlers versus the quiet quitters and the tradwives versus the soft girls.

And yeah, there has to be this. Yeah. It's actually almost odd when there are untemified subcultures like mlms. Mlms isn't explicitly a right or left thing, but if I think box shipping, when you were talking about hustlers, I'm like, oh, those are right wing nut jobs. That's what people would say about them.

Malcolm Collins
Right? Drop shipping. Yeah, drop shipping. Yeah, drop shipping. There's like a whole drop shipping culture.

Simone Collins
Like, Andrew Tateson University really fights for drop shipping. Right? They might, but a lot of things like that do. So it's very similar to MLM ism. So, okay, obviously you have mlms which predominantly target women, but the ones that target men are typically not monetized through the traditional MLM model.

Malcolm Collins
It's more like a guru monetizes through very expensive courses, and then they try to target teaching people, like, actually how to start a company. But if you're going to teach at scale how to start a company, there's really only a few companies that work on that model. Drop shipping is one of them actually doing lectures yourself. Is drop shipping like MLM for men? Yes.

Suzy Weiss
Wait, I have to read about this. I'm so excited. It's like raw milk and it's like anti vax. It's the middle of the horseshoe, and you're. You could.

It's the Rorschach test. Like, whatever. Because you can genuinely make a lot of money doing it if you do it right. But it is like MLM in that it forms, like, these cults of personality and. Yeah, but.

And the whole vocabulary around it. Like the vocabulary around. Hey, girl. Hey. Hey, babe.

Simone Collins
Yeah. Oh, my God. Hey, hon. Yeah. Han.

Malcolm Collins
Okay, let's go into. Do you want to start with Hercule Dirlkel or trad Weiss? Yeah. Define Herkle Dirlkel for our sage audience that probably has never heard this term before. Yes, because your audience is smart and reads books, and I've never read a book, but Herkle Dirkle is this 18th century scottish term, and we could get into the whole, like, trend industrial complex.

Suzy Weiss
But basically it's like an update to bed rotting, which is an update to, I think, high, which is that there's. What is heide or hage? It's like the. It's like a nordic swedish word for getting cozy. Okay.

Simone Collins
Okay. And then there was, like, another term for staying in on a Friday night during, like, norwegian winters. But it's like this umbrella term. It falls under self care, but Hercule Dirkl is just apparently this scottish phrase from the 18th century that means staying in bed longer. Than you should.

Suzy Weiss
But, of course, when you combine that with the Internet and the algorithm, it turns into this rallying cry for people not to feel bad about pickling under their duvet cover all day. And Hercule Durkal, which is stay in bed, but of course, means stay on your phone and allow a stream of garbage to go directly into your eyeballs and hold still while TikTok infiltrates your brain. So this actually reminds me of one of my favorite misinterpretations of a historic context. So people on the show know we're very into, like, religious systems and stuff like that. And we were talking with a friend of ours, and they're like, oh.

Malcolm Collins
We were like, how's your diet going? And they're like, oh, I came up with this amazing new diet system that's based on ancient eastern philosophy. And I was like, oh, no. What do you think I knew things? No, they're like, well, I learned about this concept called Wu Wei.

Are you familiar with Wu Wei? Okay, so it's a fairly complicated concept. It is where you are elevating and aesthetic reaction to your environment to, say, moral status. It's often described as, like in a river moving with the water to get to your destination. Go into.

Simone Collins
If you've read anything by the church of the subgenius, it strikes me, is like their concept of slack, which is. Very similar to the concept of slack. You achieve a lot, but through a sort of natural elegance where you're not fighting against nature and society and everything. Instead, you are like an aikido using your enemy's opponent against them, or at least in your favor. So.

Malcolm Collins
But she heard of this concept that. Was just a diet. Yeah. She wouldn't know. What she thought it meant is eat whatever you want whenever you feel like it.

Simone Collins
Yeah, do it. Eating. Just. Yeah, just don't try to do anything. Just eat whatever you want.

And then she immediately started eating a ton of junk food, and she gained weight. Yeah. Okay. But it's the same with this hurkle Dirkl and concepts like this is people are trying to elevate base hedonism to a moral system of superiority over other individuals, which is really interesting. Yeah.

Suzy Weiss
There's also, like, this weird way that medieval, debunked science is being repackaged in the wellness world. So I have a friend who gave birth, or my friend was talking to her friend who gave birth, and she had this woo midwife who was, like, essentially trying to balance her four humors. Oh, no. And it would. After a little bit of questioning, it was like, wait, what's the thing with the phlegm?

But this was like the new age thing. But anyway, yes, it is like a misused scottish concept. I don't know if scottish people stayed in bed really late in the 18th century. I assume if they did, it was because they had just gotten back from, like a land war. So I don't know.

Malcolm Collins
I don't know. I've read some books from England, and they do say the Scots were lazy people. I can also see, though, like, it used in a derogatory fashion, like a wife being like, you can't hurkle durkle all day. That kind of thing. Totally.

Suzy Weiss
There is like a Yiddish. Like, the sound of it matches what it is, like an onomatopoeia or something. I appreciate, but this, the herkle Dirkl at this point, it's old news online, but he's in line with the trend. Before you go further, one thing I want to elevate here, which I think is really interesting, is essentially people are rediscovering old forms of hedonism than building sort of an aesthetic theology around them. And by this, what I mean is, in a modern context, default hedonism is status hedonism.

Malcolm Collins
That is, it's go on trips so that you can take pictures and show how much better you are than everyone else. It's hedonism tied to affirmation from peer groups. Promiscuity, status seeking. Yeah. Whereas in a traditional context, Hercule Dirkl hedonism is just searching out pleasure, which can often be achieved fairly inexpensively in an individual's life.

And I do think that there is some value in at least recognizing this as an individual. As I pointed out on previous podcasts, actually maxing out individual hedonism stats. When you disassociate from affirmation, it's pretty easy. Once you learn to cook for yourself, you can make, like, easily four or five tier star like, chef meals that are perfectly optimized for your taste buds, that have access to spices that people, like, fought and died over historically so easily. There are four apps you can download to make your life like you would be, like, Genghis Khan level pleasure.

Suzy Weiss
You know what I mean? You can order sex, you can order the groceries, you can order the most gorgeous linen sheets. I mean, you don't have to leave your house, and you're, like, assaulted. Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins
One of my favorites was one of my very wealthy friends complained about being wealthy in this era. We've mentioned this on another show because he's. I just can't get anything that middle class people couldn't get. Like, he's. I used to be able to, what, call a restaurant and have them deliver food to my house.

Now what Uber, like, eats does that for everyone. I used to have access to foods that other people don't have access to. I don't have that anymore. I used to be able to, on demand, have servants. Now everyone basically has taskrabbit.

I used to like, what do I have? I had access to maybe a band that could come play for me. But now everyone has music players. Like, gorgeous, like, high fidelity systems. Yeah.

Suzy Weiss
Like, flatness and convenience. Culture has, in this weird way, turned us all into kings while spiritually impoverishing us all. So you might as well stay in bed. The one thing that's interesting to me is in the article, you point out that a lot of this is potentially in a backlash or contrast to hustle culture. And this feeling like it's a combination of response to girl boss and hustle culture and try fight, fight.

Simone Collins
And then this realization that we're not necessarily going to get boomer level rewards for the work we do, it's okay. Having it all was a lie. So in response, I will do nothing. I will have nothing and do nothing. Yeah.

Suzy Weiss
Weird reaction. Do you think that this was a reaction, or do you think that they just happened to be at the same time and people reacting in different ways to the same thing? Do you notice any patterns between the types of influencers or people online who go for one answer or another? I think there's a few ways this happened. To take your question in parts, I think a big part of this, and what I get into in the article, is that this is the logical conclusion of self care culture.

I do think, like, the era of wellness is ending. It's, I don't know, like, yoga pants don't count as clothes anymore, which, like, I'm happy about. But self care, as it became, like, kind of mass produced, commercialized, whatever you want to call it, began to just mean anything. It meant going to your yoga class. It meant skipping the yoga class and watching tv.

It meant spending a lot of money on food. It meant making your own food at home and making sure there were no seed oils in it. It meant going to a protest. It meant hanging out with your friends. It just is a word that means nothing.

And so, like, the end part of it is just, I will be sedentary and do nothing. And that is also self care. I will do nothing for myself, as opposed to, I guess, the ideal of self care is I will curate this beautiful life. So I see it, what Malcolm said, it's an update on an ancient form of hedonism. But I also see it as, like, the death rattle of wellness culture.

And we're going to enter into whatever's coming next. I forget the other part of your question. Oh, the types of influencers who do it. Yeah. How does this sort.

Simone Collins
Because I. There's still a lot of people who are heavy hustle and there's still a lot of people who are heavy. Soft life. Yeah, I think. I don't know if it falls into a type.

Suzy Weiss
I think this is something that was interesting, is I keep getting fed all of these, like, christian influencers and christian podcasters. I don't know why. They're really weird and interesting, but there were a few christian girls on a podcast talking about how when you want to go out and you. And when you made plans to go out and you don't want to go out and you're really tempted to cancel the plans. This is like an annoying meme online.

Oh, nothing like sex is great, but have you ever canceled plans at the last minute or whatever and these girls framed it as the devil was telling you to cancel the plans, and maybe if you went out, that was like, God had something in store for you. Maybe you were going to meet your husband that day or whatever. I think while I think that is, like, a weird way to frame it, and I don't think there's, like, a demon who stay in bed, so comfy cozy. There is something a little bit like feeding into this base impulse of staying in bed and, like, going out will, like, lead to more activity in your life. I think it shows the value of these old religious systems.

Malcolm Collins
This is something we're always installing on this podcast. I'm like, many of these religious systems actually had utility to them, and here you're seeing that utility in action. They have created a framing that prevents them from falling into these. And I should be clear, this form of hedonism creates a spiral which makes your life worse. Where I would have a different hypothesis.

I don't not think we're at the end of wellness culture. I think we're at a transformational moment in wellness culture where, and you mentioned this in the article, as I remember, is that this is reminiscent of hikikomori culture in Japan, and that what we might be seeing is an evolution of a form of american hikikomoritum, which I can see becoming incredibly popular among gen alpha hikikomori. For those who don't know are mostly men in Japan who are shut ins. They don't leave their room for years, sometimes at a time. Their parents bring them food.

Suzy Weiss
They play video games. They're totally addicted to their screens. Japan is ten years ahead of us and everything. Yeah. Fertility collapse and everything.

Malcolm Collins
Yeah. And I think that we will get a form of american hikiko mori them. And I think what will lead it, in reference to our last talk about spoonies, is an elevation of agoraphobia as a thing of status within certain elements of online culture, and that they will then feel emotionally rewarded and affirmed for leading in to their agoraphobia, which will elevate the actual amount of agoraphobia they're feeling, which makes it much easier to end up locked in your house for ten years. And we've got an entire generation that started their lives in Covid and stuff like that. First job, stuff like that.

So they got started on the tracks of staying inside all the time, and then they built their friend networks on discord. They're getting their needs fulfilled, and they desperately now need to justify why they're making these decisions that are clearly against their best interest. And now there's communities that affirm that, like the antinatalists and the effilis. Right. Say, actually, you're doing a good thing by doing nothing with your life and being a drain on society, so long as you don't contribute to keeping that society going.

Suzy Weiss
There's a few things I want to pick up on. One is you talked about getting your needs fulfilled. I interviewed an incel for a story about that for the 10th year anniversary of Tinder, who described. Yeah, it was, he was an English. He was really interesting.

And he described how, like, fast food tastes like food enough, but it's not food. And video games feel like problem solving and engaging, but it's really not doing those things. And he described it as this slack noose around his neck where he technically got all of the things fulfilled. He was talking to people, he was eating. He was alive in the world, but at this really not at.

What's the word I'm looking for, like, not at the level of actually living, but not enough that he would go and change it. Like, it wasn't dire enough. And I thought that was really interesting. It's like he's living in a simulated version of a human life. Right.

Malcolm Collins
We have created the things that we need. We don't need to go in VR to live a simulated life. We can already have simulated love, simulated accomplishments, simulated adventures and simulated food. But I would argue that is VR. That is like a virtual, it's not reality.

Suzy Weiss
Yeah, that is. Yeah. And we, I think the mistake we made, and this is something I realized about when I first met Malcolm. He just assumed that all this would become a big issue when brain computer interface was a thing. Like when we were like literally plugged in, but somehow like with just dumb screens and laptops and computers, like we are there already fully integrated.

And that's what you keep bringing up, which I think is really interesting. These ancient concepts like Wu Wei or, and people trying to bring those into the modern era where it's, wait, it doesn't work when the food is like hyper palatable and extra salty. And similarly with Herkle Dirkl. I'm jewish. We have Shabbat.

You are not allowed to work. You must rest. So I think people would be like, oh, that's like Hercule Dirl. And it's, no, if you're living like a jewish life, you are working in such a way where you need the rest. And Shabbat actually isn't about isolating yourself.

You're made to convene with your community, with your family, have meals together. So I think people take these ancient concepts and use them to justify this like ultimately pleasure seeking attitude. And it's like a lot of fasting, more or less. There's so many things you can't do. Right.

Exactly. That's crazy. Well, now get into the tradwife's part of this conversation. Oh yeah. So, so Trad wives.

I'm, are you a trad wife? Simone? Is that, we call her a trad. Wife in some of the video titles to get clicks because she looks like one. I don't think you are one by most traditional.

Malcolm Collins
Well, so a lot of people call what we know. I took the meal like, yeah, techno trad or rad. Rad. Rad. Rad.

Suzy Weiss
Trud's kind of rad. Well, we'll see what they converge on as a name for it, but it's not overly Trad. Like. We're right now really excited about these AI toys we're getting for our kids so that they have somebody smart to talk with. But we're gonna put them in their old toys and reprogram them to think that they are the kid's old teddy bear.

Malcolm Collins
But now they have an imaginary that's not trad in a traditional context. But then you dress like a medieval peasant. Yeah. Talk about Trad wise, because we, we talk about this a lot on the show as well, I don't think it's a holistically positive trend. I know that.

Yeah, you would frame it as such. But I think one of the big problems with trad wives is women begin to define the aesthetic of trad wife as the reason, as the heuristic they use to make decisions and judge whether or not they're living a good life. And that's a very bad. They're like, yes, my husband may not be happy with the decisions I'm making, but I am following this aesthetic correctly, therefore I am a good wife or a good partner. Right.

Simone Collins
I think we also, we have gripes with the way that many people define tradwifery and that we think that the true trad is the corporate family where everyone works, including the kids, and everyone kind of shares the burden, whereas a lot of people who go to tradwife free, they're working, obviously, they're managing a household, but they're doing it in the modern age where we have dishwashers and washing machines. And it's just, it's not the same to just to manage a household and have that be your career. Well, I'd also point out that, think about this in the eight passengers context. Right. With the eight passenger situation, you had a woman who in part identified as a trad wife to an extent, but then, because the aesthetic of trad rivalry was her moral system.

Malcolm Collins
She was a Mormon, but she was not like, this is how it works. This is how it infiltrates religious communities. She identified more as a trad wife than as a Mormon, more as a trad mom than as a Mormon. And because I'm more of a trad mom influencer. Yeah, right.

But because of that, when then she's love, I'm a trad mom. Right. And that is what this aesthetic is, morality. Where do trad moms compete within the hierarchy in terms of how they're different from non trad moms? Well, it's how strict they are with their kids.

How strict they are about how their kids engage with pornography. Yeah. And then she began to spin like virtue spiral on these particular topics to the point where she ended up committing real and pretty severe abuse of her children. Yes. This was crazy.

Suzy Weiss
It was so funny. I was talking about this with my cousins, a Shabbat dinner. I think the overall trend of trad wives is just an interesting case study because it's where the theory of feminism, of women should be able to do with it whatever they want. Crashes in to the feeling like, well, not like that. Let's do whatever you want, but it better look like this.

It better not look like that. So it's like these kind of, like, these values that are intention of. I need this woman to want agency, but she needs to want it herself. Have you heard of a taken in hand marriage? No.

What is that? Okay. Okay. So I've got to point you to this, because this could be an interesting story. So, taken in hand relationships are a concept that was in a relationship where the woman is completely.

Malcolm Collins
It's basically a 24/7 slave dom relationship, but done within the context of traditionalism and a monogamous marriage. But also understanding the like, it definitely came out of the BDsm community. So people who are familiar with a 24/7 slave relationship, this is when a woman often lives in, as a man's, in a 24/7 sexual role play scenario. Well, in a take it in hand relationship, they are doing that, but with the aesthetic of a traditional wife. Yeah.

Simone Collins
So instead of, like, with Gorian relationships, where they were going in this dynamic off of a Sci-Fi universe, they're going off of, like, the 1950s aesthetic of traditional marriage. Yes. And where these women want to be spanked when they make mistakes. They want to be, like, open hand slapped when they say something stupid. And it is interesting to me, this recontextualization of, I think, a stereotype of the worst kind of trad wife relationship built into a BDsm relationship for the satisfaction of women.

Yeah. It's, like, feminist, but super not. We just shouldn't have ever gotten the right to vote. Yeah. Everything went wrong.

Everything. Literally, I want to say women should have the right to vote because, like, my ancestors fought for that and everything like that. Like they were. But then I look at who would be elected to office if women didn't have the right to vote. And I'm like, but functionally, the country would be economically healthier and safer.

Malcolm Collins
Oh, my God. There was that amazing Grimes thing. It's. What do you like about the patriarchy? It's like, Rhodes.

Simone Collins
Rhodes. Wait, did he say that with the. She said that. Yeah, it was an interview, and she's. I'm into the patriarchy.

Suzy Weiss
I really like the roads. I really like the infrastructure. It was just. Yeah, I. Are trad wives supporting the patriarchy?

Are they subverting the patriarchy because they're choosing it themselves? No, I think that they're subverting it. I think the tradwives are, like, horrifying often. Yeah. The idea, as Simone pointed out, there was ever a long period in history where your average wife could afford to not work and spend 24/7 looking after the kids.

Malcolm Collins
This is a historical fantasy because people are basing their assumptions about what historical marriages were like based on Hollywood from the 1950s. So there was a short period in american history, from about the 1910s to 1970s, where this was an aspirational lifestyle among the common people, but it was never really the norm, except like, maybe like right after World War Two when we had that enormous economic explosion and. Among very wealthy people. But didn't the housewives in the fifties, like, go berserk and that they started. Yeah, they had that because they had the washing machine.

Simone Collins
Yeah, yeah. So, so, so now women are. Have tricked guys into thinking they're living this conservative relationship when they're living like, I don't know, like a harem lady would in an old islamic palace, but without the work, just like the raising of a few kids. And I've seen these women who like, stop. I have seen tradwives stop after three kids because they said it was too much work and they had a live in childcare.

Well, and we see you, if you look at stay at home girlfriend videos online and, oh, my God, stay at home daughters, professionals. I love them where it's like. And they're not. They may do some laundry, they may clean up dishes and film themselves doing it, but they are also completely, this is my expensive latte that I'm not having. This is me working out.

It's a very indulgent life. So, yeah. And somehow we've gotten to the place where you're a trad wife if you make like a buffalo chicken pizza from scratch, which just feels, like, beside the point. But anyway, I kind of love that they explode heads. I love that the girl bosses exploded heads.

Suzy Weiss
And I think all of these people are in opposition to the self care regime, whatever we're going to call it, that tells you that the best thing you could do is whatever you are doing for yourself, whatever that means. Do we understand that one of your next pieces is going to be about the next stage? The non self care, the self destruction. Oh, the unwellness influencers. The unwellness influencers.

Yes. Yeah. Well, it's not. It's not my piece. I'm editing it.

I have a. I don't know if you've read Freya India. She has this great substance. Yeah, we met her last November. She's super cool.

She's so cool. And I was like, I need to bring in the big gun for this one. So she's doing a deep dive into unwellness influencers and. And they're, I guess maybe they're the opposite of tradwives. We need to, like, we need some sort of visual chart to chart all.

Malcolm Collins
I think Ayla is the opposite of a trad wife. Ayla is the opposite of a trad wife. I saw she was getting into it about surrogacy on Twitter today. I was interested in that. You guys, you're pro surrogacy?

Simone Collins
Yeah, it's not available, but we were like, yeah, go for it. We're allowing it. I prefer artificial wombs or xeno pregnancies. What's xenopregnancy? Xenopregnancies is using other animals to carry human fetuses, but genetically altering them so that they.

Malcolm Collins
Creating a chimera so it has a human womb or something. So we're more freakish than, yeah, we're more, you're like, surrogacy. That's crazy. Surrogacy? What?

Come on. That's unsustainable. I can't farm human women, at least legally anymore in the US, but I can farm cows. And you go to the, you wouldn't do it with cows. You do it with a capybara or something like that.

That's more closely related to us. I was having a call about this earlier today about how to make this real, because I'm very excited about the potentiality of the mass production of children. A lot of people are horrified by our, so we are trad wifey to an extent, but we also want to, culturally speaking, win, which I think requires some deviations where trad culture is breaking down. Which brings me to a question. Are you going to be a trad wife?

And in what ways are you not going to be a trad wife? Oh, that's. So I think anyone who gets married is doing a trad thing. Like, I think there's a big reflex. I think especially among my contemporaries who are like, I'm getting married, but it's going to be different.

Suzy Weiss
And it's, you're wearing a white dress, you're doing the thing. You got a sparkly thing on your finger. That's cool. That's fine. Like, it's okay to want a thing that many other people want.

It's annoying to me to reframe it as not that traditional thing. I think every wife is a trad wife. So in that way, yes, I hope to be a trad wife. I bake bread every Shabbat. Nope.

Simone Collins
Oh, no, you bake bread. I just have to hide my decolletage for my modesty for my husband, but no, I'd like to have a lot of kids, but I also really like to work and write, and I would. Everyone wants a life where they could do both. A lifestyle that we, some of our friends have gone into, which is when is open to you. So you might consider it is the.

Malcolm Collins
I call it secular orthodox Judaism, where they are not, like, theologically that into it, but they follow all the rules. Really strictly and post modern orthodox. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I think I am, like, been thinking lately more about, like, communal living, especially. All three of my sisters had kids in the last two years, and I see how my middle sisters, who live where my parents live in Pittsburgh, or it's just like this key butts where it's like, in and out and this kid and that kid, and there's just something so incredible about it.

Suzy Weiss
Yeah. Maybe one day, maybe I'll be like Simone on the eve of number four, hopefully. No, I hope. Or we'll have our big artificial womb factory and you can just pick one up. Just pick one up.

Simone Collins
Yeah. By the way, we're not close to this technology. I am joking about this for our audience's edification. Don't go off and say they're growing children in their backyard rodents. I'm sure there will be this whole status thing of, yeah, well, you grew in a human and humans are gross, whereas I grew in a super cute capybara, so it's fine.

Suzy Weiss
Wait, but I think womb. Are womb transplants a thing or not a thing? There? Yes. There has been at least the first woman to successfully have a baby after receiving a full uterine transplant has taken place.

Simone Collins
So there's at least one case of it that, like, we had a gestationally functional womb transfer, which is something I think about a lot because I'm, like, terrified. I get my c section this Thursday, and I'm like, I don't want to lose it. I don't want to lose it. So if I do lose it, I'm going to be like, can I get a new one? Can I get a new one?

We'll see. Fingers crossed. You got to get. Remember when the most. The most controversial thing was the death boards?

Suzy Weiss
What were they called? Oh, yeah. Death panels. Death panels. Yeah.

That was, like, the craziest thing. And now we're talking about God knows what. Who's in line for the first womb transplant? Probably the most natalist among us. Yeah.

But, yeah, we'll see. It's a weird world. I do think the story of reproduction, breeding IVF IVF, regret, birth control, getting off birth control, the world of fertility toxicity, testosterone numbers going down. That is what I'm focused on, I think, for this next couple of months, because I think it's a really rich subject. You should talk with rag nationalist, if you haven't already.

Simone Collins
Yeah. Raw egg nationalist. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Suzy Weiss
I follow him on Twitter. He's really interested. We can introduce you. He's been on our show before. Yeah.

Simone Collins
He has, like, a font of great research. He will just send. He'll email us. I like here, this study. I think you'll like it.

And it's. Whoa. Like, he finds really good stuff, so he'll be a great informant. Okay, cool. Because I'm also, like, raw eggs and, like, the status of the egg as, like, the perfect food, the evil food, cholesterol.

Suzy Weiss
The white's good. Egg whites white. Like, you can follow what we think of, like, fertility in a way, through the story of how we regard eggs and milk. That's good. And, like, we're out of the alt milk soy milk era, which renegade raw milk.

Simone Collins
Now you're. You guys are raw milkers. No. I know. No.

Malcolm Collins
God, no. Oh, you're not. Yeah. No, that's when I think I got. You guys pinned down.

Simone Collins
No. We are speed running life. A lot of people are, like, the things you do are really, like, unhealthy a lot of the time. And it's. Yeah, but we're not life extensionists or anything.

Malcolm Collins
I just want to live long enough to give my kids a good life and get the tasks that I'm working on done. Oh, you're like, get the two gallon whole milk and get in the car. We're going home. You're not doing, like, the boutique. Let's drive away.

Simone Collins
I know. We. We go to one of those bulk stores, and we just get, like, BJ's. Pretty much all our food comes from BJ's and then goes in a chest freezer. But in our district, where I'm running for office, there is definitely a big theme about raw.

Like, this farmer tried to sell raw milk and they stopped him. Oh, yeah. Because you're in Pennsylvania with a lot of amish and mennonite communities. I'm from Pennsylvania. We have a lot of eggs in our.

Malcolm Collins
We have chicken at our house, as we gave them out at the last party. But we're not, like, chicken supremacists. We're chickens. As an aesthetic, I don't actually think we're making our health that much better by having our own chickens. It helps me deal with the anxiety of the food that the kids always don't eat, because then I to the chickens, and then I feed the eggs to the kids, and then it's just the circle of life.

Suzy Weiss
There you go. It's a circle of life. It's good. Yeah, but good. OkAy.

Simone Collins
We're gonna make some intros for you. Thank you so much for talking about this. Yeah, I can't wait for your neXt. We would love you to come on, like, every time you do a piece, if you want to come on and talk about it, just let us know. You gave me so many ideas.

Suzy Weiss
Drop shipping of the MLM for men is really. That's goNna. That's gonna be fun for me. Efilism, you need to go deep on. That's the one that no one has DOne.

Malcolm Collins
It is so fascinating. What is it? Okay. Efilism, it's life spelled backwards. ISM.

You can look up our efilism for the subreddit on the subject. OkAy. It is a movement that is an extreme form of antinatalism that wants to erase all life on the planet. So not just get rid of humanity, but ensure that sentient life never evolves again on planet Earth, because they think that sentient life is an intrinsic evil. And it's a pretty big movement now.

Suzy Weiss
So it's like pro mass shootings, I would assume. Yeah, kind of. So they're about seven times the size of the pronatalist movement, to give you an idea of, like, size of this movement. And they are absolutely insane. And I think that they're going to be an increasingly big thing as pronatalism picks up steam, because then people have to justify how they're not bad people.

Malcolm Collins
And so they come up with these moral frameworks, negative utilitarianism, to justify their means.