CZ, Bull Market Predictions & The Future of Binance | New CEO Richard Teng

In this episode, the hosts interview Richard Teng, the new CEO of Binance, discussing his background, the future of Binance, and predictions for the bull market.

1. Richard Teng's background in traditional finance and regulatory roles before joining Binance.
2. The transition from CZ to Teng as CEO of Binance.
3. Binance's goal to reach a billion users and the importance of regulatory clarity for mainstream adoption.
4. Challenges Binance faces in different jurisdictions, including regulatory compliance and local enforcement.
5. The optimistic outlook for the crypto market and predictions for Bitcoin and other major cryptocurrencies.

1: Introduction and Richard Teng's Background

An overview of Richard Teng's career in traditional finance and his transition to the crypto industry.

• "I started in 2017, and that's where I was in, actually, Boca Raton, attending a futures industry association..."
• "I have worked for about three decades now, but, I mean, until I joined Binance, I essentially worked for traditional financial firms..."

2: Leadership Transition at Binance

Discussion on CZ's departure and Teng's new role as CEO.

• "CZ, the co-founder of Binance, is gone. He's serving in prison sentence right now."
• "Richard Tang is the guy who's filling CZ's shoes, and we felt it was time to finally meet him."

3: Binance's Future Plans

Teng's vision for Binance's growth and user base expansion.

• "How does he plan to take Binance to a billion users?"
• "Our mission is to support the freedom of money, is to support our users globally."

4: Regulatory Challenges

The importance of regulatory clarity and Binance's approach to compliance.

• "For this industry to go mainstream...you need clarity of regulations."
• "We are working very closely with policymakers, regulators."

5: Detention of Binance Executives in Nigeria

An update on the situation with Binance executives being detained in Nigeria.

• "Tigran Gambarian continues to be held by a government in Nigeria for more than 70 days."
• "Tigran is a true professional of the highest integrity, and his passion is in terms of fighting financial crimes."

6: Bull Market Predictions

Teng's predictions for the future of the crypto market and Bitcoin's price.

• "My prediction for end of year bitcoin price for this year is 80,000."
• "I think next year will be a much better year compared to this year."

1. Stay Informed: Keep up with regulatory changes and how they affect the crypto market.
   • Follow updates from reliable sources and regulatory bodies.
2. Focus on User Needs: For crypto businesses, prioritize user protection and compliance.
   • Regularly gather user feedback to improve services.
3. Exercise Regularly: Maintain physical and mental health with daily exercise.
   • Schedule at least 30 minutes of exercise each day.
4. Embrace Innovation: Continuously innovate to stay ahead in the crypto industry.
   • Invest in new technologies and product features.
5. Diversify Knowledge: Read books and watch documentaries to gain different perspectives.
   • Explore memoirs and historical documentaries for valuable insights.
6. Plan Ahead: Set weekly goals to stay organized and focused.
   • Spend time each weekend planning for the upcoming week.
7. Build a Strong Team: Success in the crypto industry requires a talented and dedicated team.
   • Foster a collaborative and supportive work environment.
8. Educate Stakeholders: Provide training and education to policymakers and law enforcement.
   • Conduct workshops and training sessions to dispel misconceptions about crypto.

Now that CZ is gone, who’s going to fill his shoes?

His name is Richard Teng, the new Binance CEO. He’s joining the podcast today to not only share the story of how he got here, but also to define his vision for the future of Binance.

People

Richard Teng, CZ (Changpeng Zhao), Ryan Sean Adams, David Hoffman, Tigran Gambarian

Companies

Binance, Kraken, Gemini, Blackrock, Abu Dhabi Global Market, Singapore Exchange

Books

None

Guest Name(s):

Richard Teng

Content Warnings:

None

Richard Tang
Well, my sort of first experience with crypto didn't start when I met CZ. I started in 2017, and that's where I was in, actually, Boca Raton, attending a futures industry association, which I go every year. But that was the first year that I saw a lot of crypto boys coming through. And I got quite intrigued with this new industry. What exactly does it represent?

The more I understood it, I said, look, I think this is the future of finance.

Ryan
Welcome to Bankless, where today we explore the frontier of Binance. And who is taking charge? This is Ryan. Sean Adams. I'm here with David Hoffman and we're here to help you become more bankless.

CZ, the co founder of Binance, is gone. He's serving in prison sentence right now. So who is running Binance these days? Who took over for him? Binance is by some measures the largest exchange in the world.

It's had a crazy couple of years. Was fined $4 billion by the us government. Its founder is now spending four months in jail. David, it's always four, isn't it? It's always for Binance.

Richard Tang is the guy who's filling CZ's shoes, and we felt it was time to finally meet him. So that is our guest on today's episode. We talk about a few things. Number one, who is Richard? Why is he here?

Number two, how does he plan to take Binance to a billion users? Number three, are things with us regulators really settled? Like, is there a blank slate? Number four, the story of why binance execs are being forcibly held in Nigeria right now. Like, what is going on with that?

And number five, we end with some fun price predictions for the bull market. Before we get into the conversation, our friends and sponsors over at stakewise want you to know what they're up to in the world of liquid staking on Ethereum, if you're a solo staker but your ETH is locked up in a liquid because you're solo staking, you can continue to be a solo staker in the stakewise protocol while also being able to mint OS ETH in order to use your solo staked ETH in Defi, on layer twos, in eigad layer, or anywhere else across the Ethereum landscape. You get to keep your rewards that your node is earning while doing more with your ETH. And if you're not a solo staker, stakewise is introducing a vaults marketplace to choose perks that you want to add onto your staked ETH between custom MeV strategies, DVT insurance, APY boosts all things available through the stakewise faults marketplace. There is a link in the show notes if any of this stuff peaked you, I enjoyed getting to know Richard here with the hour that we had with him.

Sean Adams
Pretty personable guy, which I would also say CZ was as well. And really, my question that I was trying to get asked is like, is this a new era for Binance? Is there a before and after of Binance after CZ's departure, or are things gonna continue on as usual? I'll let the listener kind of listen to the episode with Richard and decide for that. But it was nice to get to know the guy who's now at the helm of like, the largest crypto empire that's out there and what his plans are for the next era for binance's growth as we enter this next crypto cycle.

Ryan
Yeah, David, I certainly have my takes on how Richard is maybe different from CZ and similar and what this means for the future of finance, and I want to talk to you about that in the debrief. So for bankless citizens, there is a debrief episode waiting for you on your bankless premium feed. If you are not a bankless citizen, you don't have access to that, but you can get access. There's a link in the show notes where you can get the bankless premium feed, like, no ads. All of the debriefs, all the goodies that David and I pack in.

All right, guys, let's get right to our episode with Richard. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this possible, including our number one, our personal number one recommended crypto exchanges. Not buying it. The onshore one, it is Kraken. Go check them out.

Sean Adams
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Ryan
Open bankless nation I want to introduce you to Richard Tang. He's the new CEO of Binance, which is the largest exchange in the world. He took over the role in November 2023 after the departure of Binance's founder, Czech, who stepped down following a legal settlement with us authorities. Now, as of the time of recording, CZ is serving a four month sentence in a federal prison in California. Some background on Richard that David and I dug up, but we're going to find out more from him today.

He joined Binance in August 2021. He was the CEO of Binance Singapore, and before that he was working in the financial regulatory world, Nabu Dhabi, and also in Singapore. And I think we should save the rest of the intro for Richard, because this conversation is really about getting to know him in his own words. Richard, welcome to Bankless. Thanks, Ryan.

Richard Tang
Thanks, David. It's great to be here. Okay, so since we haven't met, and I think you are new to some in the crypto community, why don't we start? Could you just tell us about yourself? Sure.

I mean, I have worked for about three decades now, but, I mean, until I joined Binance, I essentially worked for traditional financial firms like Singapore Exchange. I started my career with the Central bank of Singapore. I stayed there for 13 years, doing things like licensing, authorization of capital markets of banks, insurance firms, etcetera. But I had a stint doing financial sector development, trying to develop Singapore's private banking sector, asset management, reinsurance sector. I was sent to New York for two years.

I stayed in Battery Park City for two years to try to bring in the likes of Blackrock, then into Singapore. That's way back in 2001, 2002. So it's a. And it happened during 911. So I saw the collapse of the twin tower as well.

Ryan
Wow. So I was there for 13 years with the central bank. Then I moved to Singapore Exchange, where I rose to become the chief regulatory officer. And I was there for seven years, until I was headhunted to Abu Dhabi Global market to become the CEO of Financial Services Regulatory Authority. So my background is essentially mainly in regulations as well as more tradfi in nature.

Richard Tang
I have a chance meeting with CZ sometime in June of 2021. We hit it off. He convinced me to join Binance, starting off as CEO of Singapore in August 2021. And that's where I started the chance meeting. Tell us a little bit about that, because it's always a fun story when someone who has a traditional finance background, particularly in kind of like the banking world, you were on kind of the central bank side when they find their way into crypto.

Ryan
So what was that chance meeting like? What kind of drew you into binance in this weird alternative financial system that we call crypto. Well, my sort of first experience with crypto didn't start when I met CZ. I started in 2017, and that's where I was in, actually, Boca Raton, attending a futures industry association, which I go every year. So the top honchos from global exchanges, New York Stock Exchange, Nasdaq IcE, CME, etcetera, will go there.

Richard Tang
So I was representing Singapore Exchange, and I went there, but that was the first year that I saw a lot of crypto boys coming through, and I got quite intrigued with this new industry. What exactly does it represent? The more I understood it, I said, look, I think this is the future of finance. And when I was CEO of Abu Dhabi Global Market, we became the first, then almost the first in the world to start rolling out a comprehensive framework to start regulating crypto. I tell people, I'm not your traditional regulator.

I'm not the type of people that regulate banks without having a bank account. So I got my hand dirty opening up crypto accounts, started trading to get to know the industry much better. So my first exposure into crypto started in 2017 then, right? So I met a lot of people. I met the wink of wars twins from Gemini.

We met Jesse power from Kraken at that point in time, in a bit, to try to attract them to set up shop in Abu Dhabi, and Kraken set up shop in Abu Dhabi then. So when I met CZ, I already had background in crypto, and then he was trying to suss me out. Somebody introduced me, because at that point in time, I just came back to Singapore from Abu Dhabi, having stepped down as CEO. And then somebody introduced me. He was trying to suss me out, and then we went for lunch.

But if you remember, Singapore then in June 2021 has very strict Covid measures. So we met in a place where there's only two of us, there's nobody else, because you can't go to restaurant. And that lunch lasted about two and a half hours. On hindsight, after I joined binance, I realized how precious those two and a half hours are because our meetings are packed 15 minutes, half an hour. So throughout the lunch conversation, I saw him calling his secretary, can you postpone my meeting?

So I think he treated it quite seriously, and I hit it off then. And then he asked me to join violence. And I started in August 2021. CZ always struck me as an incredibly energetic, busy person. Like, I can imagine that man's calendar was absolutely full.

Ryan
Like, hopping to meeting, to meeting, and just, like, continuously on the move, continuously, like, just a very action oriented individual. Richard, in what you just said, you said in 2017 you saw crypto as the future of finance. Tell us a bit more about that. Why was it apparent that crypto was the future of finance? What exactly drew you into that line of thinking?

Richard Tang
Because if you look at it as policymakers globally, as well as banking regulators, one of the biggest problems that we try to solve at that point in time was financial inclusion. And then we have been at it for 50 years, and financial inclusion isn't getting much better. If you look at, you are in America, so you are blessed, you have high level of financial inclusion. I'm in Singapore again. We have very high financial inclusion.

But if you look at developing countries and frontier economies, you can see financial inclusion of between ten and 20%, meaning 80% of people in the world of that particular economy does not have access to banking, does not have access to payments, remittance, etcetera, either that or is very expensive for them. So the more I got into blockchain and crypto and said, hey, look, this allows people to do remittance at a fraction of the cost in an instantaneous basis compared to the traditional method. I like banks that operate. I don't know what's the timing in the us banking hours, but in Singapore it's probably between, what, 930 to 04:00. But, you know, crypto is 24/7 it never sleeps, it keeps working.

Anybody can access crypto in any part of the world on a 24/7 basis. So there's almost no hurdle rate for anybody that wish to be involved in this industry to get access to this technology and then use this technology as a mode of transfer or value. So that was very intriguing. But my thesis back then, and I still hold that thesis now, is that for this industry to go mainstream, for it to be embraced, for adoption rate to go up, firstly, you need clarity of regulations, because you can have 5% adoption, or you can even reach 10% adoption without rules and regulations. But for it to hit 40, 50%, a lot of users would demand clarity of rules, regulations in terms of protection of the assets.

So that's the first dimension that we need to see. And second thing, you need institutional investors coming into this space that brings in liquidity, know how, structuring of new products, creation of new financial instruments around crypto. So to me, those are two things that are essential. And the second part of it, the second dimension, institution investors probably wouldn't come in until they see clearer regulations. So, which is why in 2017, I went about making sure that at least Abu Dhabi itself create a framework that is very supportive of crypto, giving crypto players a chance to be properly licensed to serve users, to make sure that users assets are properly protected, to bring about that growth in terms of crypto adoption.

Ryan
So for you, the future of finance is very much tied in with the story of, like, the democratization of finance in banking and money. And I think we'll return to that question a little bit later in the conversation, just like, to find out why you're here. But that's cool to hear how you got in the space and sort of caught the bug. Everyone comes in from a different vantage point. You're bankless, right?

Richard Tang
So you believe in. We do, we do. We believe that the intermediaries and banking systems are very ripe for. To be disrupted and to kind of like reform around this new infrastructure that is evolving and emerging. I mean, your point about regulators and institutions is interesting as well.

Ryan
It certainly depends on having the right regulation, doesn't it? And regulation that doesn't slow us down. But before we get into some of those broader conversations, I still want to go back to maybe your initial conversation back there in Singapore for those two and a half hours with CZ, and then what's happened since then. So you took the job at Binance, and I'm just, like, looking out, I'm zooming out over the last two years and what an absolutely insane two years we've had. And I want to get in your head and kind of hear what it felt like from your perspective.

But just a recap for bankless listeners who you've probably lived through the whirlwind that was, you know, 2022 to 2024. But like, all of the craziness that happened, 2022, FTX collapsed. You guys remember that, right? This is a major exchange, a major binance competitor. There was the CZ tweet from November 4 where he's dumping the FTT tokens.

All of that happened, all of that chaos. In 2023, we got charges from the US against Binance, including AML and sanctions violations. So you were there for that. 2024, a judge ruled that Binance had to pay a $4.3 billion fee. This is like one of the largest in history.

And CZ, the founder of Finance, was sentenced to four months in jail. So that happened. He retired, and now here we are today. And, Richard, you have taken the lead as CEO. Binance keeps chugging.

We've got a new bull market. Bitcoin recently hit all time highs. It's like, set to do that again here shortly. The BNB token as well just hit all time highs, which I was just like, surprised to see that in the last week or so. What was all of this like?

There's some things I'm sure you can't comment on. Some things maybe you can, but, like, where were you when all of this was going on? When you step back and you zoom out and you look at the last two years, do you ever just like, ask yourself, what the heck was that? What just happened? Yeah, you know, there's never a dull day, right, in crypto especially.

Richard Tang
But maybe just to take a step back, Binance is still a very young organization. We are going to celebrate our seven year anniversary next month. Imagine a seven year old organization, and we have 199 million users today. Going to hit 200 million users very soon. If you look at the pace of growth, the first 100 million users took us about five years, and the next 100 million users is going to take us about two years or just slightly shorter than two years that show the pace of development and crypto adoption.

I just want to put that in context. In the very early years, probably in the first five years, as you know, the rules are not very clear. It's at a very nascent, very early stage of development. So we are trying to see what we can do in terms of making sure that we satisfy the different requirements. But there are no very clear rules for us to comply in many of these areas.

Even today, about one third of global regulators are regulating crypto. Still two thirds are still not regulating this page. Of the one third they're regulating, it is not easy because some are regulating them as secure, some treat as commodities, some treat as digital payment token, and then others have a dedicated definition of virtual assets for them. And these rules are conflicting with each other. Securities are quite different from commodities and how you regulate them.

And that poses a big challenge for global platform like ourselves. So every time when we do local deployment, we have to really understand the local rules, trying to find out how best to comply, tweak internal processes, our systems operational framework, to, to satisfy them. So you understand the operational robustness that we need to have, especially when you operate on a 24/7 platform on that front. So yes, we were there in the midst of it, I was there looking at it. But truth be told, we are very mission focused.

So we know there are all these challenges coming through. But our first priority has always been focusing on user, focusing on user protection, making sure that we serve our user needs while we pivot the company. Probably in the first few years of the company because of lack of clarity of some of these provisions and rules. We make mistakes. And CG paid the ultimate price for some of these mistakes.

He took accountability, as you mentioned, he retired, stepped down from that role. I'm very honoured and humbled that he and the rest of the leadership team picked me to be the next CEO. So we will continue on those very strong fundamentals and principles. We have built. A very strong company, as you mentioned, is building on those fundamentals, making sure that we continue to be user focused, focusing on the products and services users want, continue to innovate on that front, by the same time making sure that we are compliant with all the new rules and provisions coming through.

So I make three commitments when I step in as CEO of Binance, I say, look, firstly, we will always be user focused. Users will always be at the heart of what we do. That's extremely critical because our users and our communities are accountable for success. Without them, really, this platform has no one to serve. So we are very mindful.

I'm very glad to go around the world meeting our users, meeting our community, because they give up feedback on products and services that we need to enhance, areas that we need to look into things that they want to see, etcetera. And this includes both retail as well as vip customers. The second part is given that the direction of travel is towards one of more compliance. So we are working very closely with policy makers, regulators. You mentioned a good point just now to say that the regulatory framework should be progressive, should be smart to really, on the one hand, manage risk.

On the other hand, support innovation. Because if you have a regulatory framework that only manages the risk but doesn't support innovation, it's not going to be beneficial for the economy, it's not going to be beneficial for the industry and ecosystem is detrimental. Given the importance of this industry, we work very closely with global regulators on that front to highlight to them, how do we manage risk by the same time, support innovation. We have done a very successful case study in Dubai. The Dubai government approached us in late 2021 to develop a framework to support crypto.

We came up with a framework with them and look at the huge success story that Dubai has now in terms of attraction. Crypto firms, crypto developers, projects, exchanges, asset managers. So these are things that we do globally and then every local jurisdiction, we are very supportive of local law enforcement efforts. The third commitment I have is working with crypto partners because we are still in a very early stage of crypto development. Five 6% crypto adoption globally.

I think the recent introduction of ETF, bitcoin, as well as ether approval, not only in the US, but if you look at global jurisdiction, from the likes of Hong Kong to Australia to different parts of Europe, I think everybody is pushing out their ETF approval now. So you see a mainstreaming of this industry. So we are working with traditional financial institutions, we are working with crypto firms to really support crypto adoption and deployment, because the more we can build this industry together, the more robust and vibrant the ecosystem. Everybody benefits and we will benefit from it. So that's my three commitment when I step in as CEO, and we will continue on that front, some of those challenges.

I'm very glad that ourselves and our team, we have very experienced global leaders, we are in it together to solve all these problems together. So we are on a journey to solve these problems, to continue to serve our users well, and continue to grow a very sustainable and vibrant platform. Richard, you're stepping into some pretty big shoes to fill. CZ was just this larger than life figure. I mean, he built an empire.

Sean Adams
He built a massive cryptocurrency exchange that blankets the globe. I'm kind of considered by many in the industry to be just a hero for onboarding so many into the world of crypto and for building what he built. And you are feeling that role. How does that feel? I would be intimidated, but that's why I'm a podcaster, not a CEO of a cryptocurrency exchange.

I'm wondering just what your sentiments or emotions are as you stepped into the role, the shoes that CZ has left. I think, first of all, no one can replace CZ. And that's my view. Right. I'm not here to replace CZ.

Richard Tang
I mean, he is very unique. I mean, he's a global leader, he's a visionary. He brought about Binance in 2017 and he grew it from zero to the company that we are today. So I don't think anybody can replace him. I think we have to be our own person.

I mean, he has built such a strong foundation for us to continue that very mandate. And our mission is to support the freedom of money, is to support our users globally. And also, binance in the first six and a half years is quite different from the binance going forward, because there are a few things that have changed in the landscape. There's clearer regulations today compared to the past. Direction of travel is quite clear.

Compliance is something that everybody is looking at, the global regulators users are looking at. So it's quite different as a company. It's also different. It started off with a core team of seven grouped to 30, and then a few hundred and then a few thousand. So it's totally different companies.

But today Binance is a company of thousands. So managing this company require a very talented team of core managers, which we have put in place now. So it's not one person driving it, to me, it's a team effort that's driving it now. Also, the corporate structure has changed. So CZ used to be the CEO and decision maker, but today we have put in place a board of directors of seven.

So you understand that once you have board of directors, we as a management and I as CEO, together with my team, we are accountable to the board for corporate decisions and they are the corporate steward. They set the direction of the company and we will execute and then we will change the execution direction depending on the needs of the landscape and what is evolving in the marketplace. But crypto evolved very quickly, day to day, as you know, right is evolving and innovating so quickly. So we are on our toes on a daily basis, making sure that we are ahead of the game, making sure that we know what's happening in the market. We are developing the right thing.

We're enhancing our products and services, enhancing the features to serve our users, complying with what the regulators want, working with partners globally, including the likes of Mastercard, that you might have seen. So we are doing multiple things at the same time, but it's not an individual effort, so it's a team effort. We have very talented senior leaders. We are very committed, mid tier managers and also very hardcore junior officers within the firm, all believing in this mission or having the same values, or being hardcore, humble, trying to add value, protecting our users. I'm wondering what your perspective is on whatever company always goes in the direction of whoever's at the helm.

Sean Adams
And so how familiar you are with CZ and the way that CZ thinks, I think answers the question of, is binance going in the same direction that CZ would have let it? Or maybe that was never really the intention in the first place. Maybe CZ, with his board of directors and advisors, identified a North Star for Binance that was independent of CZ, and you were also going in that same direction. I'm wondering if you can just familiarize us with how familiar you were with CZ's direction, or whether or not CZ was actually kind of working more collaboratively with the rest of the company to define a North Star for the whole company. I worked with CZ quite closely for two and a half years after Singapore, he started to ask me to take care of Middle East North Africa region I'm familiar with.

Richard Tang
So I took over as the regional head for that particular region, and that pie started to grow to include Europe and then Asia Pacific and then rest of the world. So I worked very closely with him, as the rest of the leaders do walk very closely with CZ, but a lot of his thinking are set in to the mission, values and DNA of the company. So many in the company knows, and he defined a lot of these things, and all these are positive attributes. So at any point in time when we make a decision, CZ was very clear. So does this benefit the user?

Does this protect the users? So those are his guiding principle when making decisions, and those became the guiding principle for us, for all of us in finance. Does this protect the user? Is it beneficial for the user? Is it beneficial to the market?

If it is, we will do so. If it does, then no. Many of these decisions are, in our view, not difficult to make, because we always try to make sure that users are protected. Things are beneficial to users. For example, something very simple that started way back in 2017, 2018.

You know, coins get lost when users transfer wrong to wrong addresses, and it happens all the time. And it may not be intended for our wallets or their wallets with binance, but we took effort to try to trace back those and then pass back to users, and that was unheard of way back then. So that is a demonstration of how far we go to safeguard users interests. We are the first to come up with a Safu fund to protect users in case there is anything untoward in terms of cyber attacks or cyber security. So you can see the psyche of the organization is one that, let's place user interest first to make sure that we treat the users, and then they will treat us, which is why we have such a strong community globally.

People believe in us. So this trust is not built over six months or one year. It's built consistently through our action over the course of seven years till now. And we will continue to make sure that we maintain that confidence and trust of our users. You're saying this is part of the DNA that CZ has left in binance, and how binance has followed through on that.

Sean Adams
What about Richard's DNA? What DNA will you add to the binance organization now that you're at the helm? Well, I'm standing on the shoulder of giant. I'm building off what the giant has built, but we will need to continue to pivot towards being a regulated entity globally. So we spend a lot of time, effort on that front, working with global regulators.

Richard Tang
And you see that in terms of things like corporate structure, it has moved from when CZ step down to what we have today in terms of having a board directors, having the different subcommittees within directors in a form and format that regulators are much more familiar with. So we will continue to gravitate towards that, because that's the direction in which this industry is growing. And we need to move to the times. We need to move to the times in terms of what our users want. So what the users want today will be quite different from last year.

So we have wrought things like tripartite arrangement with some of our corporate clients and with financial institutions, retail investors. Webtree Wallet was a new innovation from us. This is something that they wanted, enhancing our copy trading feature, allowing them to do mock trading as well. So these are things that we will continue to make sure that we innovate on that front. So again, is continuing to pivot towards being a fully regulated global financial institutions, making sure that we build a very robust enterprise that's sustainable, that's going to go from strength to strength for the next 50 years, not only built for the last seven years.

So these are things that we are working on tirelessly on a daily basis. A 50 year vision is pretty impressive, and I can't wait to see where crypto is. It should be 50 years and beyond, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that would make all of us pretty old men by that time, but ready to pass the torch.

I'm not quite sure. I'm around by then.

Ryan
You know, just on a personal note, while we were talking about CZ, I was just kind of like wondering, how's he doing? Like, when's the last time you talked to him? What's his mental state? I talked to him after the sentencing. CZ is an extremely strong individual.

Richard Tang
Right. If you know him, he's an extremely down to earth, extremely humble person, very personable, very charming, but he also is a very calm person under any circumstances. So he has a very strong state of mind. We have been through a lot. You mentioned several episodes in the last few years, but what, you know are only public events.

There are a lot of things happening on a day to day basis, but he has always a very calm demeanor. He makes decisions in an extremely logical fashion, and he took it full responsibility for it, full accountability for it. We all respect him for that on that front. So he's looking forward to it and serving and exiting that, yeah, I know. He'S left crypto and you're like, is serving this sentence.

Ryan
I, for one, would love to have him back on bankless just for kind of like a crypto exit interview. When he's done with that, it's got to be just a surreal experience for him. Let's talk more about binance and kind of the future. So incredibly impressive to hear that in seven short years, Binance now has 200 million users. And all of those users are kind of like, onboarded into crypto.

Right. And taking their first step to go bankless and exchange is generally the place that you start. Let's talk about big picture. How do you turn that 200 million into 1 billion? What's going to do it for Binance?

What's going to do it for crypto? Talk about the use cases, the apps. I don't know where you want to take this, but 200 is pretty impressive, but we're not satisfied with that. This is the future of finance, and we want everyone to have access to these tools. So how does binance get to a billion?

Richard Tang
Just take the big picture first. If you look at the big picture, crypto adoption is still very early stage. Today we have about five to 6% in terms of global crypto adoption. But the introduction of ETF, the main streaming of crypto, I think that would be a big push into crypto. So if you look at the data, about 15 billion has flown in into crypto via the ETF that's launched in the US since the beginning of this year.

So I think that's a massive figure. If you look at the market capitalization of crypto today is about 2.6 trillion. Bitcoins accounts for close to slightly more than half of that. 1.3 billion or more. 1.3 trillion or more.

Sorry. So we are still at a very early stage, including this particular cycle. I think we are still at a very early stage. I think Jenny Johnson from Franklin Tabeta says it very well, even for institutions. She thinks that the big institutional money are getting ready to come in.

They are not in yet. They need to do their own due diligence. But 18 days of net inflow into the bitcoin ETF, I think that is just extremely robust demand. And if you look at the performance of Blackrock ETF, I think that's the best ETF launch ever. So I think all this just goes to show how much underlying demand there is, and there will be, as we bring about even greater education to more investors, both institution as well as retail, into this space.

So I think that's the first factor. With all these new inflows of liquidity, new investors, naturally everybody should benefit from it, and we aim to be part of that, being one of the largest players in this space. So I think that's one. Secondly, continue to do what we do best, which is to serve our customers extremely well, so that they want to continue using our platform. We want to continue to bring in new users globally on that front, making sure that we have the best products and services that are attractive to them.

I think there's no secret sauce to that. It's hard work, understanding, listening to users continue to innovate on our ops and tech. Something that we pay a lot of attention to is our operational resilience. Unlike traditional financial institutions that operate a certain hours a day, at least, the public facing part operates a certain hour. We have to operate 24/7 across the globe.

So in terms of technology and operational demand, robustness is extremely important. So those are things that we pay a lot of attention to, because you can't imagine that, you know, how much users will be impacted on that front if we are not robust enough in that aspect. So these are areas that we continue to invest great usage of AI, which is impacting every industry. Again, things that we are deploying into various aspects of it, including into our compliance program, we should continue to invest very heavily. Last year, we have invested about 238 million into our compliance program.

So again, we will continue to make sure that we pivot very strongly, continue to serve both existing customers well, as well as bring new users into this, and then making sure that together with new product development, innovation, we support some of these new projects as well as new products coming on stream. Richard, those 200 million users, where are they in the world? Where are they concentrated? I feel like I have a very good sense of Coinbase and Kraken's user concentration, but I think binance is much more spread out deeper in emerging markets. It has the potential to grow the population and its user base even faster, given its international focus.

Ryan
Where are these users generally concentrated? Where do you, you think the geographic areas of the world are primed for growth? For crypto, actually, we see growth in every region, but sometimes they take different turns and we serve global users. So from Asia Pacific to Europe, to Middle East Africa region to Latin America, etcetera. So we are almost everywhere serving global users.

Richard Tang
But what I will say is this, the countries and the region with the fastest crypto adoption are where normally the demographics are much younger compared to neighboring countries or other regions. And secondly, where financial inclusion are slightly lower compared to other places, and you can understand why. Where the population is much younger, they tend to understand crypto much better, or they can learn crypto much faster. So you imagine a person in his fifties or sixties or even late forties most of their life, dealt with traditional financial products and instruments. Trying to get them to invest into crypto will take some time, which is why ETF is a great product.

ETF may not be a great product for you and me because of the fees involved, because we are in crypto, but for them it makes perfect sense to get exposure via ETF. So everywhere we see younger demographics, we see much better marketplace for ourselves, a much faster crypto adoption deployment. You have a much more enthusiastic community in those places. The second area is where financial inclusion is lower. Again, it's understandably why, because people have no access to proper payment system.

People have no access to proper financial banking system. Banks charge them very high fees to even open a bank account, and many banks are refusing to open bank account for them. So crypto becomes the most in which they can do payment, they can make savings, they can do remittance on that front, and it's excellent for them and it's necessarily very cheap compared to what financial institutions charge them. So in these regions or in these countries, we normally see much faster crypto adoption. So for us, we spend a lot of our time and energy in terms of education, both educating the investors and potential investors, the potential users, but also policy makers, policy makers, enforcement agencies and regulators, because a lot of them have misconceptions about crypto on that front.

So we just held an online training program for about 1300 law enforcement agents globally. Very well tendered. We teach them, look, crypto is a traceable technology, and you can really use this in a much better way to trace illicit funds to crack down on financial crimes compared to traditional fiat channels. I always tell them this, if you have 100 million today and you start distributing cash, it's very difficult to trace where those cash go to. But all of us know crypto.

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But celo is a community governed protocol. Make your voice heard in the Celo forum to shape the future of ethereum. Follow on Twitter and explore the ecosystem built for the real world on celo.org quests im wondering if we can ask about your plans, the future of binance us relations? I dont really know how these things work, so maybe you can inform me. But like, is there a clean slate now with binance and the United States and what opportunities have now showed up now that we are past the whole regulatory gamut that binance has gone through, what's binance's plans in the United States?

Richard Tang
You're talking about binance.com quote s plans in us? Yeah, or binance dot us dot. Maybe we could clarify that. What is the state of binance us and how does it relate to binance? So binance us is totally separate.

It does not have relationship with binance.com per se. We are run totally separately, different board of directors, different group of shareholders actually. So there's no relationship other than the fact that you have common shareholders in CZ. But again, there's different group of shareholders other than CZ on that front. They are run very independently.

I don't really know what's happening on that front, so I'm not the right person to ask on that. With the us resolution for Binance.com, we agree not to serve us customers as part of that resolution. And I think the rest you know. Right. So we have paid a fine.

CZ has agreed to step down. And we have a point compliance monitor to me, which is a positive, right? So we paid a very high price and painful price for this. But the positive coming out from this is that we have compliance monitored with us. It's not only ourselves that attests that we have built a very robust AML KYC program in the last two and a half years.

You have somebody else in the company that says, hey, look who have examined their program and they have really invested a lot. They're on a journey, they are doing all the right things. They have a very robust, compared to many other crypto exchanges in the world, they are way ahead of the game. So to me that's a key positive as well. Okay, so your binance is actually just strictly an international company from the perspective of the US, like, no us users.

Sean Adams
And that's just part of the agreement. And that's how the cookie crumbles. Okay, Richard, earlier in the conversation you were talking about, part of Binance's role is really to educate regulators, like different countries in different jurisdictions. We've been covering this a little bit on bank lists, but, like, are not in the details of what is going on with binance executives. More than one, I believe, in Nigeria.

Ryan
And I guess I'll just give you a take of what it seems like from our perspective. It seems like the nigerian government has kidnapped binance executives and are now holding them in Nigeria without cause or explanation. And you put out a blog post, I'm probably going to butcher this gentleman's name, but he is a us citizen, Tigran Gambarian. Maybe that's close, is innocent and must be released. This is the title of a blog post that you authored on the binance website May 7.

You said, as you may be aware, one of our beloved colleagues, Tigran Gambarian, continues to be held by a government in Nigeria for more than 70 days. There has not been much public commentary on this episode, and I want to take this opportunity to provide the facts so the global community's perception may not be distorted unfairly. And then you say this in bold. To invite a company's mid level employees for collaborative policy meetings only to detain them, has set a dangerous new precedent for all companies worldwide. What in the world is going on in Nigeria?

Like, what is happening here? Can you give it to us in your own words? Sure. So Tigran has been now detained for more than 90 days. That's an extremely long period of time.

Richard Tang
He continues to be detained despite our best efforts to get him free. We want to make sure that he's back home safely with his wife and family, and obviously is a very distressing time for everybody. That's one. Again, I set out very clearly in my blog. Tigran is a true professional of the highest integrity, and his passion is in terms of fighting financial crimes.

So it's an irony. He went to Nigeria as a functional expert, not as a negotiator, not as a management person that makes the decision. So it is unfortunate that he is detained. And we continue to work very closely with the Nigeria government to secure his release. Also, I think you have seen different media articles coming out that the us prosecutors have asked for his release.

There are policymakers in the US to say that, look, he has been detained unnecessarily. We will always try to solve problems that we have if there are problems with any government. But that is a function of what we do as a company. But Tigran shouldn't be used as a tool for unnecessary charges on that front. Okay, so I still feel like I'm not clear on all the details here, but to your comment, this is something that happened just this week.

Ryan
Us lawmakers, particularly in the Republican House, have called, and this is a quote from US Representative Michael McCaul. I call on the Biden administration to promptly declare Tigran as wrongfully detained and urged the nigerian government to release him immediately. He was invited to Nigeria by the nigerian government and has done nothing wrong and should be returned home to his family. So binance is active in Nigeria. Imagine you've been active in Nigeria for some time and I imagine you have ongoing conversations with nigerian regulators like those in government.

Richard Tang
We've conducted trainings for the financial intelligence in unit. We have conversation with the regulators over there. I think I've set up very clearly in the blog, which is quite extensive in terms of our involvement, our engagement with the regulatory agencies as well as with the financial intelligence unit in Nigeria. And that Tigrant was invited there. We were invited there and then this happened, which is most unfortunate.

Ryan
What reason are they giving for it? So basically he was invited there to just continue these dialogues, do some more of the education, just like the backend and forth, and then suddenly he's just like now in captivity, like, what are they telling you? I think this podcast wouldn't do it much justice. I don't want to say much more other than what I've set out in my blog for fear that people might interpret it differently. So go and read my blog.

Richard Tang
I think for people that's very interested in the episode, what transpired, what happened is very detailed because it happens over the course of a few years. I was involved in Nigeria and we are very committed to solve the problem as an organization. We are very committed to working with the nigerian government on this front. It's an important market. We think that we can help the nigerian economy to be even much better.

We want to solve the issue and we continue to work towards on that front. But other than that, I don't say much more because I think it will muddy the water even further at this point in time. Yeah, I understand. I imagine it's a sticky situation. It's sensitive.

Right. Tigrayan's interest as well. We all want that. I think in the crypto community, because let's get him home. This doesn't seem just so appreciate ongoing updates on that as well, and hoping and praying for his safety.

Ryan
Let's zoom out again for a minute. We talked about, Richard, how you got into crypto. Is this path of seeing the future of finance and democratizing access to banking tools for the world? Question we've had at bankless. Steven and I have had the privilege to have many of the exchange founders and CEO's on over the years.

And in every single conversation, like, interview, first interview we have with them, we always ask them the question at the root of, like, why are you here? Like, really? I know why you got here, but, like, why are you still here? And I think at the root of this question is, like, what values do you have? Because I think your values as an individual and company really influences the direction you go in this space.

And I remember Jesse Powell from Kraken, Brian Armstrong. We asked them this question, and their answer was very much around the lines of giving access to decentralized money, tools that just can't be corrupted. So Brian tells the story of some of his formative years he spent in Argentina, and the peso was going wild. And look at this alternative that we have in crypto. And people in Argentina deserve this.

I remember we asked the same question of SBF pre. All of the chaos when FTX was rising high, SPF basically said that he was here to make money and give it away. So that was the effective altruism take on it. It's just like he said, if he could trade orange grove futures and they had the same growth profile of crypto, then he'd be trading oranges instead of crypto. So you hit the max profit button and then, quote, unquote, give it away.

So coming back to the full circle to this question, Richard, why are you here? Well, I think that's a very important and very interesting question. So I count myself as very fortunate. In my previous role as regional head of markets, I travel the world quite extensively, including to third world developing frontier marketplace. It's really in those places that you see how important crypto as a financial instrument is.

Richard Tang
I talked to many people, including local people that are not into crypto, as well as people that get involved in crypto very early on midstream, and people that just get involved in crypto. And I see how much better many of their lives are when they get involved in crypto. For instance, let me give you an example. In many of these places, the currency has gone through huge devaluation because of hyperinflation in the last few years. So anybody with access to crypto path.

Some of the money is into stable coins in terms of preservation of wealth and assets. They are so much better compared to some other people in terms of the payment space. A lot of them have no proper modes of payment. You can't use fiat for things on platforms, electronic platforms, when you purchase things, which tends to be much cheaper, again, crypto becomes that means to allow for mode of transfer, which became extremely important. So I've seen what I call crypto in action, and I see how beneficial it is to the lives of so many people globally, especially in developing and frontier market.

So that makes a huge difference to their life. I was once in a developing country, and people don't know who I am. So I just wearing my binance cap. And then this young gentleman came up to me. The first question is, do you work for binance?

I said, yes, I do. The person was like thanking me profusely. I said, why are you doing that? I said, oh, my brother. It's not him.

His brother got into crypto via binance three years ago, and the family was very poor at that point in time. And then crypto allowed them a chance to get into financial independence. Actually, the whole family was extremely grateful, and he was thanking profusely. He borrowed my captain and say that, I want to take a photo of this, show it to my brother. I said, you can keep the cap, it's fine.

It means a lot more to you. I can always get another cap. So I've seen how it changes the life of so many people in so many parts of the world. I like to go for our community events. I like to meet our kols, our angels, because they tell me a lot of different stories, again, of different episodes, how it transformed the life of the underprivileged in many different parts of the world.

And that really is our key motivation. We want to make sure that people can use money in the way that they wish to, especially people who have no access to the financial system, which is why our mission is support the freedom of money globally. We want to allow people to use assets, money, in the way they deem fit, without restrictions. And crypto is the way to do it. The second thing is, crypto is the future, because all the youth and young adults are in it.

So if you look at all the different surveys globally, if you ask the young adults, what asset class do you own? Many of them own crypto and not stocks, securities or debt anymore because it allowed them the chance to gain financial independence. This particular space, which is quite different from many of the other asset classes, they missed the boat on the great growth in many of those other asset classes, but this is nascent and this is developing, so it allows them to get a chance towards financial freedom, financial independence, which is why we are here to support them in that journey. And that gets me excited. These are the two primary reasons, Richard.

Ryan
I just want to, plus one, what you said about younger demographics skewing crypto, and part of the reason why is, I don't know, people always say crypto ux sucks. I completely disagree with them, actually. I mean, have you ever tried to use like fidelity or schwab or like your Wells Fargo banking user interface? To me, crypto, if you've been sort of brought up and you understand how wallets work and like private keys, it just is so much more seamless than going to like, my 401K account infidelity, the user experience is so much better to send a stablecoin to David than just to like figure out how to like wire it to his IBAN number and routing and, and check information and all of this. I've heard this echoed from people we talked to that skew younger, the gen zs of the world that are builders in the space.

And I remember a conversation with like a startup based in India and to like 1920 year olds, and they were just basically like, crypto makes sense. The tradfi system that I have to learn makes no sense to me. And I think it's going to just skew more and more like this. Absolutely, and you're absolutely right, because you grow up with it, it becomes intuitive to you. And because you're tech savvy, everything makes sense to you, setting up a wallet, doing the transfer.

Richard Tang
But for a person in their fifties and sixties, you have to understand that they are brought up in a different dimension. They are brought up with their first investment would be equity or debt securities. Their first interface is what you see in the trapfire interface, which you think is very unusual, friendly, but this is what they're used to. So for a person, I mean, if you look at the younger crowd, hardly anybody goes to a physical bank or make use of the ATM anymore. Everything is, you know, going through bank transfer, etcetera.

But for a person in their fifties and sixties, to them a bank is, you need to make a physical visit to a banking shop and withdraw money, right? So again, we are all creatures of our experience, right? So they grew up in that area. They are brought up that way. Their experiences are that you can't quite follow them.

And if you ask them to set up a coalette, I think they'll freak out. What exactly is this where I lose all my money, etcetera? Because simply lack of understanding. There's no proper coaching. They are not as tech savvy as many of the young folks.

So it's a generation issue and it's also a knowledge issue on that front. So you can't afford them. But you're right for people, they are so much younger. Crypto Defi, the space makes absolute sense to them. And this is the industry of the future.

Any industry where the youth, young adult embrace will be the industry of the future is as clear as that. And the idea of crypto UX sucking is definitely one that comes from the past. The UX is getting really good. There's been just like a global movement of like, hey, it's time for everyone to get it on chain. Like, we need centralized exchanges because that's how you get there.

Sean Adams
But like, the goal is to get on chain. Just give us an update on the state of BNB chain if, for whatever perspective that you have of it. Like what's the initiatives going on over there? How are they trying to get people on chain? What's the growth story?

Download us on the growth story of BNB chain in 2024. Well, I can't comment quite a lot on BNB chain because it's run quite separately. So I think we need to schedule you to speak to somebody else on that front. But you're right, things going on chain CX exists for a reason. Right?

Richard Tang
Cx are great in terms of fiat to crypto and crypto to fiat, the on off Ram unit. CX and things like a single point of access is so much easier, many people feel safer, etcetera. So CX will still continue to play a big role. But for crypto natives, if you just do crypto to crypto transactions, for example, a lot of people are relying on Defi. You don't really need CX on that front, but both will continue to grow because there's a natural inhibition for people just to skip from traditional finance to defi, that curve is too steep to cross.

So the normal curve is people go through CX, get exposure there. And also it's much easier. I mean, and CX normally have much better interface. It allows you to do more things, allows you to do on off ram, etcetera, etcetera. But I strongly believe both will continue to grow quite strongly in the next five to ten years.

Ryan
By the way, David, just like you note here, I really like the way Richard says cx rather than the way I've never been comfortable calling these sexes, okay? The soft c for me just doesn't work. All right? So from here on out, cx is better. Yeah, CX for me, at least.

Doing the sex thing. Richard, I would imagine you're some sort of a workaholic. I don't know how you would have ended up is the CEO of finance without being some sort of workaholic. But what about the Richard that unplugs and turns off? Like, give us a little peek behind the scenes?

Sean Adams
Like, what are your hobbies? What do you like to do? What's fun for you? Hobbies. I do have hobbies.

Richard Tang
Okay, so what I do, I can tell you my daily schedule, right? So normally I start off the day I wake up, I spend half an hour planning for the day. What do I have to accomplish either for the day or for the week? I normally plan advance. Normally for the week I plan over the weekend.

What do I have to achieve the next week? So that's what I normally do. But I also make sure that I have half an hour exercise during the day, because I think it keeps me both mentally sharp and physically sharp as well. So I normally make sure that I have half an hour of exercise in a day. One of the benefits of people in crypto is most of us can choose to work remotely.

We do have physical meetings, like go and meet regulators, policy makers, community. But other times we do a lot of our meetings on a remote basis. And that allows us, you know, in between meetings to have a bedtime squeeze, something to do with the things that we need to do. So I normally squeeze time to do my own exercise, whether it's cardio or some weights, etcetera, some yoga on that front. And then I try to do some reading.

I watch Netflix in my free time. I read books. Give us a show recommendation. Do you do a three body problem yet? Netflix show.

Ryan
What do you like on Netflix? Oh, you caught me off guard. This is, you know, either answer that or answer what your favorite crypto asset is. Which one's. Which one's a harder answer is BNB alright, I'm glad that you see the all time high recently.

Sean Adams
Yeah, congrats.

Richard Tang
Slightly boring person. I watch documentary, so I watch quite a fair bit of documentaries because I do think that history has a way of teaching us lessons that we can all take away. So I watch quite a fabulous. I mean, even books. I read quite a lot of memoirs, autobiographies, etcetera.

So I tend to favor those. You a podcast guy, Richard? Yeah, I do a lot of bank lists, I'm sure.

Ryan
All right, let's talk about the bull market that we're in. And I don't know, we always used to ask CZ when he'd come on about his predictions, and he'd always have something to say, as you can imagine. So I don't know how you feel about predictions, Richard, but one thing that I think is forefront of everyone's mind in crypto right now is we are in the fourth cycle, the fourth crypto cycle. And traditionally the cycles have been about, you know, like four years long, and they go up high and higher and higher and higher, and we get into what our friend Raoul Paul calls the banana zone, and things get absolutely crazy, and then things calmly crash down. We fall down, you know, 60, 70, 80%.

It feels like we are in the bull cycle, but we haven't quite hit the banana zone of, like, going to extremes here. That's if we take the last three cycles and we just kind of extrapolate that forward. Do you think that's how this cycle will play out, or do you think this is different? What are you seeing? I mean, we've never been at, say, 200 million binance users, so at some level, this is a little bit different than where we've been in the past.

What's your base prediction? Do we get another boom bust cycle? Are there more legs in this bull market yet? Well, I think that we are in the early stage of this particular bull cycle, and that's my view. If you remember, for almost more than three quarters of 2023, we are in a pretty bad cycle.

Richard Tang
There's a continuation of the year before, so last year was not so great, and then market activities start to pick up towards the end of last year. So we are still relatively early. There are some differences in this particular bull cycle. So normally, bitcoin will hit an all time high six months after the halving cycle or six months or after six months after halving cycle. This bull cycle is different because bitcoin reached all time high even before the halving.

So that is something that was not within my prediction towards the end of last year. I said this in some other forum towards the end of last year. My prediction for end of year bitcoin price for this year is 80,000. And possibly, I think 2025 is going to be an even better year than 2024 for crypto in general. Because the general macroeconomics condition will be much better.

Were probably going to see interest rate reduction towards the end of this year. There's going to be a much better macroeconomic environment, much more enlightened interest rate environment. So I think all those will boost crypto prices even further in 2025. So my base prediction end of 2023 was 80,000 this year, 130,000 my next year. But what I didn't predict was the strong, robust inflows from the institutions after the launch of ETF.

I didn't expect the ETF to be approved so quickly, so early on in the year. My prediction for ETF approval was possibly towards the end of 2024 or even 2025. Right. So I think I have changed my prediction because of that. My price for end of this year is much higher than 80,000.

I'm not going to give you the price, but it's much higher than my base price end of last year. And I think next year will be a much better year compared to this year. That's my view. We have seen a lot of analysts coming out, including from Standard Charter, to say that buy next year, bitcoin should reach 200,000. If there's a squeeze, it should reach a quarter of a million dollars.

I think there's still some room to grow both for bitcoin as well as tokens such as ether, where the ETF has just been approved. Again, with all this approval of ETF, it brings new liquidity, new user pool. I mentioned 15 billion has flown into the bitcoin ETF since the beginning of the year after their approval. And that's very robust. Right.

We will continue to see pretty robust institutional demand on that front, and that is really very beneficial for the crypto community. What about the total crypto market cap? So last cycle we topped out at $3 trillion. We're at $2.77 trillion. So bitcoin has reached all time high, but the total crypto market cap has not.

Sean Adams
We're just under our previous all time high. Where do you think the total crypto market cap ends up at the end of the cycle? Another unique feature of this particular cycle. Of course, we are still very early on in the cycle, so we have not seen the full cycle into play. But something that's pretty unique in this cycle, if you remember the past cycle, normally it starts off with bitcoin rallying, and then it filters down to the other mega coins, so to say, and then slowly it goes down to the meme coins.

Richard Tang
This cycle sort of was focused on bitcoin and that meme coin, straight meme. Coins, people skip straight to the end. Skipping a lot of in betweens. So this is unique in this particular cycle is unique in that sense as well, which is something that I don't think we have quite seen in previous cycle. I don't remember it, but I may be wrong, but I don't think we have seen it in previous cycles.

So it is quite unique. I do think that the market cap will more than easily double where it is today. That's my view. How many more times than that? Three times?

Four times. It's very difficult to have a crystal ball to predict that. But again, these are my own view, not financial advice. You will easily more than double from where we are. I'm just doing the math, and I'm here in a range of between maybe six and 12 trillion there.

Ryan
David, what do you think of that? It's pretty bullish. I'm a crypto bull. I'm bullish. You have to be in your role.

All right, well, this has been great, Richard, thank you so much for coming on. Maybe one of my last questions is, I know Binance has, has a lot of investors, traders, that sort of thing. That's a Persona that binance has attracted over the years, and it does a lot of volume. Do you have any just general advice for them or just thoughts for traders, for investors on how they can do well in this market, how to avoid mistakes? What would you say to a trader that just puts up their hand and says, Richard, just tell me how to do this better?

What should I do? Well, firstly, I would say that we are extremely grateful to our users, to our community, to our different stakeholders that have supported us, that placed their confidence and trust in us through time. And we are doing our best to make sure that we do everything we can to serve you even better in terms of products and services. So if there are any areas of improvement, please feel free to escalate them. Let me know, let the rest of the team know.

Richard Tang
We'll try our best to make sure that we do right and we do much better. So I think that's the first message from the sense. Second message on that front. I am not a trader. Unfortunately.

I wish I am much better than trading, but I am a trader. The reason is I don't watch the market all the time, so I tend to be one of those people that buy and hold through time. I'm much more boring in that sense, so I buy and hold. So I really admire people that can do fantastic trading, but I guess some of the fundamentals will apply. So you have different form of traders, you have quant, you have people that do algo, etcetera, high frequency trading, but they are experts at what they do and not me.

So you probably need to speak to them to find out how to make money in this cycle. But I've seen many traders doing extremely well. I'm very grateful for their support and hope they continue to support us and do more business with us. Richard, I actually do have one last question, because I think many listeners still have some PTSD from last cycle where a major crypto exchange that they trusted, that they had faith in, that they had funds on, went completely under, and it turned out had been using the depositors funds to go. You speculate on crypto markets.

Ryan
That was a very traumatic experience for a lot of people in crypto. You are the largest exchange right now in the world, binance, and there's a lot of funds being custodied in binance. What can you say about assurances of those funds? Right? And, like, keep in mind when you say that, I think in crypto, hopefully we learned our lesson in 2022 and we're moving to a trust but verify type of model.

So we heard Sandbankman freed say a lot of things, too, just like words are great, but they're also not sufficient. What kind of measures have you put in place? What sort of proof can listeners see when they're using binance? That their funds are safu, that their funds are actually secure? Trust us based on our action, right?

Richard Tang
We are not the flashy type. We don't go out saying that, you know, flowery words, but we have been very consistent in our actions. So user funds are sacrosanct. They are back one to one. And that is a fundamental principle from day one when binance is set up.

So, as I mentioned, user protection, user assets, safety, security. At the heart of what we do, we make sure that those are being protected. Other than Safoo fund, we also publish things like proof of reserve. We have expanded the number of coins that are covered by proof of reserve. We publish them.

Finance as an entity, we are very prudent in terms of our operations. So you don't see us slashing out big sponsorship. We are financially prudent, making sure that whatever money goes back to supporting the community, supporting our users need, making sure that we are robust. And truth is, we are the most regulated exchange. We are regulated in 18 different jurisdictions.

We are under close scrutiny by the us regulators for a prolonged period of time. So they have made up various allegations at us, but I think there are two allegations that were, I think, very clear. There's never any allegation that we misappropriated user fund and there's never allegation of market manipulation. So they scrutinize operations very closely for a prolonged period of time. But these things are things that are rest sacrosanct.

We make sure that there's trust in the community. We place a lot of emphasis in terms of protecting user assets and making sure that safety, soundness, fairness of the marketplace are very important to make sure that we run a platform where different users can trust. So the rest of Australia on that front, I mean, I can tell you this, but we are scrutinized very heavily by global regulators on that front as well. Yeah, I think my personal perspective on this is if something was amiss, then the regulators would have found it in the last two years as they were digging very much into binance. One action item though, for you, bankless nation, if you have funds on any exchange, I encourage you to look at their proof of reserves policy.

Ryan
So we will include a link to the binance proof of reserves policy in the show notes. And go look at that for yourself. Look for on chain types of attestations. These are some crypto native tools that we can use for proof of reserves. Richard, it has been fantastic to finally meet you.

Congrats on the role. We look forward to big things from binance in the years to come and your continued mission to onboard the world to crypto. Thank you so much for spending the last hour with us. Thank you so much. Again, bankless nation gotta end with this.

Of course, you know, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in. But we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone.

But we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.