Argentina late game heroics, England's struggles persist & Austria takes Group D

Alexi Lawless
Hello, sunshine. I'm Alexi Lawless and welcome. Welcome to the State of the Union podcast. We look at the beautiful game on and off the field through the lens of red, white and blue colored glasses. Today's show is brought to you by Zillow agents tours loans homes get home with zillow.

We are coming to you live Tuesday, June 25, following our 12th day of the 2020 €4 and our 6th day of the 2024, Copa America. As we make our way through this amazing summer of soccer. Reminder, we'll be coming to you live each and every day after our euros and Copa action, giving you a wrap up and a preview of what's to come. But first, joining me as always, my friend, my colleague, my guiding light, David Mossy, a soccer savant and a Fox soccer researcher and writer extra Daenery. Oh, boy.

Mossy, how you doing on this Tuesday, June 25, in the year 2024? Doing very well, actually. Really? Yes. You don't have to do any writing.

David Mossy
Tonight, evidently, I finished all my work, and so as soon as we're done taping, I get to go home, eat a proper dinner, and watch the second episode of season two of House of the Dragon. So big night for the stat man, your Jesus. Did you just talk? All right? Did you just call yourself the stat man?

Alexi Lawless
I love it. Your disposition has changed dramatically. Look at this. Look at this. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're just listening, I will again attempt to describe what is happening in the studio with all of our incredible graphics and all the technology that we have.

The logo of Fox now, as we all know, is our friend David Mossey, in the Buddha Lotus type of position, hunched over his keyboard, working furiously through the night to give us the soccer content that we want. And now it has actually been put in because it's, you know, usable and a lot of different things put into the State of the Union podcast crest, if you will. So it just, the, the possibilities are endless with this mozzie. I love it. Now, Lex, I finished my work so early tonight that I came up here earlier than usual, and I caught the immediate aftermath of the now show.

I told you, we're not calling it anything other than the show that shall not be named. First off, there were more people here than were at MetLife Stadium tonight for the Argentina chili game. And just everybody. What's the attraction? It's a great energy.

David Mossy
Everybody's so happy. A feeding frenzy, if you will. I got to see Kiara. I got a little facetime with Aaron, which I don't get a lot of these days. I got to talk to Moe.

Do. I got to talk to Nick and Fran, and I might have buried the lead here. I did get to see the goat that everybody's excited about. Yeah. Evidently, the budget for that show is, you know, just completely ridiculous.

Alexi Lawless
All right? And they don't even. I don't even know if they think about money when it comes to that show. And so they. They got a real live goat in because, you know, the goat is often what they call the best player.

I don't know if you heard this. The goat, the greatest of all time. And so since Messi was playing tonight, you know, that's. That's the level of humor that they're going for with that show, which is fine. It's fine for them and fine for their audience.

The thing crapped all over the place. Just saying. Just saying. They get the goat, we get the smell of goat piss. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. So. But, you know, we got a few people here in the studio tonight, but it was. It was cool.

And Jimmy and the folks over there actually had the goat on stage and did whatever the hell it is they do with the goat over there. We do not have a goat tonight. We just have David Mossey, which I think is as good and at times even better than a real goat. All right, my friend, you ready to light this candle? Let's do it.

All right, should we get to what is going on? Today's big moments of the day? In a second here. Let me just read out the scores. When it comes to the euros.

France won. Poland one, Netherlands two. Austria three. England zero. Slovenia zero.

Denmark zero. Serbia zero. Over in Copa America. We just got done with that. Peru zero.

Canada one. Chile zero, Argentina one. All right, let's go through our big moments of the day. How do you want to take this? You want to take this?

Euros first, or do you want to just mix and match? Kyla and I overheard a conversation between her and Sean Sullivan where they were debating this. She would like us to start with Argentina. Chile. Okay, that's fine.

I don't want to bury the lee. Oh, yeah. Because of the goat and everything. Got it. All right.

So what I loved about this game was not just the atmosphere, and it was a wild atmosphere. I'm sure you were jealous that you were not back in New York. And when I say New York, I mean New Jersey over there. But it was a scene, as is often the case when Argentina's playing. Messi's playing sold out packed Metlife.

Is that what it's called over there? Correct. We don't want to piss off the sponsors over there. So Metlife Stadium, 80,000 people, everybody going crazy. We saw the scenes down in Times Square before, it was a thing.

It was a place to be seen to see the goat in Messi and the defending champions when it comes to the World cup and the Copa America. By the way, what I was impressed with tonight was how Argentina, which we look at as incredible depth and incredible ability, was able at a certain point. And I mentioned it on air. You remember the movie roadhouse? Not the bs one that just came out with Jake Gallon, whatever his name.

What's his name? Gyllenhaal. Gyllenhaal. Jake Gyllenhaal. No, not that one.

Okay. I tried to watch that one. Not as good as the original. So the Patrick Swayze one where Dalton, you know, said, I want you to be nice until it's time not to be nice. And Argentina, for all of its incredible talent, they can scrap.

And they can scrap with the best of them. They can take the hits, as Dalton did, but they only take so much, and then they start giving back. And when I say take the hits, it's not just the big, rough and tough type of guys that are taking the hits. The goat out there is taking hits. And the only way that Chile was ever going to, this version of Chile was ever going to find a way past this version of Argentina was to just kick them all day.

And that's what they did. And it ended up being actually pretty entertaining game for just a 10 game. Ultimately, the better team won't. It took them a while to break through, but I loved the roadhouse effect of Argentina. I got one more thing to say on it, but I want to let you go.

And then I have something more general about this game and what it reminds me of. They left it late, but Lautado Martinez got the goal. We talked about how, after not scoring at the World cup, this was an important summer for him to reestablish himself with the national team. And now it's two and two games for him. And to your point of why it took so long, Claudio Bravo was absolutely sensational.

Awesome, awesome. Oftentimes people out in american soccer will say, why aren't we doing this? And why don't we have players that do this, and why haven't we won this? Especially when it comes to the men's game. And if you want to know what separates teams and why South America in particular, produces great players, it was there in spades.

Tonight. You saw the mentality and the physical nature of playing the game, and this isn't necessarily about being a brute. This is recognizing that for all your talent in terms of technique and trapping the ball, which is, don't get me wrong, is very, very important. There also has to be a street mentality. And let's be honest, for a lot of american players, that doesn't exist.

Now. Can you manufacture that? Maybe, maybe not. But you can see it. And if and when you see it, you have to be able to recognize it and value it.

And so I hope that american players, whether they're playing now, maybe more importantly, whether they're coming up, will at least be able to see it and recognize that you need to have that as part of your game. And even the best players in the world, and even the best teams in the world, they have that proverbial dog. They have that ability to use the physical nature of the game, even. It's almost a controlled recklessness in which they play. But it is huge and it is important.

And in a game like tonight, where there's so much familiarity between two teams because of the years that they played, it didn't matter that this is a great version of Argentina and a poor version of Chile, they still recognize that while we respect you, we've played you so many times, and we know this is how, this is the only way we're going to get something out of it. Anyway. Anything else to say on this game before we go on? Argentina become the first team at the Copa America to advance the quarterfinals. We're going to revisit this game in year one for the road.

David Mossy
But you talked about the good physicality in this game. We saw some bad physicality in the other group, a game between Peru and Canada. When I rake things, that can happen on the field that I despise, that I hate number one. And for those that have listened and watched over the years, you will know that spitting, for me, is number one. All right?

Alexi Lawless
I. I would much rather that you punch me in the face, and I know there's some of you out there would love to do it. I would much rather that you punch me in the face than spit on me. I can't think of anything more disgusting and cowardly in the game, I guess, in life, too, than spitting at somebody, headbutting is. Is up there.

It is in my absolute top five in terms of things that I just think are despicable. And in the same way that I often say you can't be a little pregnant when it comes to being offside, you can't have a little headbutt, okay? Especially in this day and age. And so I thought it was absolutely ridiculous in this game. And for those that didn't watch it, there was a moment where there was a headbutt that was as clear as day.

You could see it in real time, you could see it in the instant replay. And then for Var, you could see it in every single angle that you wanted to. And yet, while it was reviewed, nothing was given. It was insane that that was not a red card. I agree.

David Mossy
That was Lopez on Johnston. In the first half, Peru did get a red card. Then in the second half, Adoho for a challenge on Schaffelberg, Canada capitalized. Great counter attack. Lauren to Schaffelberg to Jonathan.

David Kripo makes some saves late. And Jesse Marsh gets his first win on the Canada bench. First win. Their first goal that they scored. Congratulations to Jesse Marshall.

Alexi Lawless
Also a shout out to the AR, who at one point in the game, it was ridiculously hot, as it often is in Kansas City in the middle of summer. And this is important because Kansas City is a venue for 2026. The venues that are not roofed, that are not climate controlled, there is going to be an advantage. And in this case, there was danger. And so I hope that he is doing well in terms of getting the fluids that he needs, because it was a scary moment there, but he did get up, but he was absolutely wobbly.

And it can happen very, very fast when you least expect it, but you should expect it when you're out there in the heat. For Jesse Marsh in Canada, this was not a good performance, but this was a great result. Puts them in very, very good position going into that third game. But the team that we saw against Argentina didn't really show up. So there's a little Jekyll and Hyde going on here right now.

And we'll see ultimately, in this third game, this is going to decide things, what kind of team shows up. They most likely only need a draw against Chile to advance. But based on what you saw from those two teams tonight, how do you see that one playing? I think Canada get the result or Chile beats them and moves on. I think, again, the level.

The level is higher than this past game, but I do think that Canada gets it done. I think they get the point that they need. All right, where should we go to now? The euros two groups drew to a close today. The first one was group D.

David Mossy
France and Poland played to a one one draw. We have some thoughts on the Robert Lewandowski penalty. I want to go on a rant about that, but you put it in the rundown, so apparently you are talking about it. We're on the same wavelength. No, I'll let you go.

Alexi Lawless
I will defer to you because I love a good mossy rant. So both goals came from the penalty spot. Mbappe came back to the lineup today, wore a mask, scored his first career euros go, his 48th overall in his France career. But then Lewandowski equalized from the penalty spot. It was a penalty.

David Mossy
It was initially saved by Mike Mignon, and then he got to retake it because Mike Mignon came off his line. But I'm sorry, I think the way Robert Lewandowski takes his penalties is illegal. He comes to a complete stop. So I think it's ridiculous to penalize the goalkeeper in that situation. To me, that initial save should have stood.

Alexi Lawless
Okay, so when you get stopped for doing something illegal out in public life, right? And you tell the officer, oh, I think that what I did was legal, right? They say, well, no, it was illegal, and we're still going to arrest your ass and throw you in jail. And then you can tell the judge what about what Lewandowski did is against. The laws, because you're not allowed to come to a complete stop.

David Mossy
You can do a little bit of a stutter step on your way to the ball, but I think the way he does it, he clearly violates the spirit of that rule. You don't think so? I don't think so at all. As a matter of fact, I think that he recognizes that the law, as strange as it may be, or as irritating as it may be, is the law. And he is doing to the letter of the law what it enables him to do.

Alexi Lawless
And you can yell and scream all you want, but if you don't like it, then change the law. All right? And as long as you are not coming to a stop in your actual action of hitting the ball, and everybody says, well, what's the goal he's supposed to do? Stay on the line until the ball is hit. It's pretty simple.

I don't understand what the big deal is. So I have no problem with the stutter step. I have no problem with this adhering to the law. And if you don't like it, fine, but that's the law. And Robert Lewandowski did not do anything wrong.

David Mossy
You know who agrees with me, though? Who's that? Stu Holden. Because I got a text 5 seconds after that penalty, as we discussed last night, he gives us instant reaction to every single thing that happens in every game. What?

Alexi Lawless
Everybody stew to you. Your argument for this is. Yeah, but I don't like it. That's fine. I don't.

David Mossy
No, no, no. I disagree with you. I think he is violating the rule. Oh, I don't think so at all. So you think that they actually got the call wrong?

Yes. The referees in this moment did not apply the law as written. All right, I think you're wrong. I'm not saying that you can't change the law, but I. All right, whatever.

Incidentally, it was Pele who invented that Pellenkick taking technique. It's known as the parajinga. He used to do this stutter step. And so players since then have all tried to emulate it. But I don't think they get it quite right.

Alexi Lawless
Anything before we leave this? I mean, it wasn't a great performance by France, but I think they seem fine and they will go on. Potentially costly, though, in terms of the side of the bracket. It puts them in. More on that in a minute.

David Mossy
But let's get to the other group D game. Your Austria claimed a big three two win over the Netherlands to top group D. This was an incredible back and forth game. We had our 7th own goal of the tournament by Mallon, which gave Austria 10 lead. Then Gakpa won one.

Schmidt, two one to PI. Two two. And Sabitzer gets the late winner. So Ralph Rangnick, who turned down the Bayern Munich job to coach in this tournament, doing a very good job. Well, he knew something.

Alexi Lawless
And that really, when I started watching this team and when I started thinking about this team that someone like Ralph Ragnat had said. I believe in this team so much that I am willing to turn this down. Because I want to see this team grow. I want to be a part of it. And that he recognized very early that this is something special.

And then that it pays off for him. I like that. I mean, ultimately, I don't know how far this team can go. But this is the team that we talk about, where it's not a bunch of stars, but the collective is the most important thing. And this is a team that you saw time and again today, where even if they get scored upon, they don't change the way that they play.

And they respond on a continual basis. So congratulations to Austria, not just for going on over winning the group. So Group D finished with Austria in first place. France second. Netherlands advance as one of the third place finishers.

David Mossy
And then Poland. And illegal penalty kick taker Robert Lewandowski crash out in the opening round. Then we had the final two games in Group C, which both finished scoreless. England, Slovenia and Denmark. Serbia.

England topped the group, Denmark finished second, Slovenia third and Serbia fourth. They crash out. Before we get to Denmark and Slovenia, do you have any thoughts on England? Yeah, I mean, I expected more. I expected a rebound.

Alexi Lawless
I expected them to rise to the occasion and if anything, I think they may have regressed. Does it mean that they can't win this tournament? No, but I don't think that anybody, when it comes to the english fans or when anybody, when it comes to the english press, are going to get up tomorrow morning or even go to sleep tonight thinking anything. But this team is not good enough. And the lack of an ability to change anything from Gareth, Southgate or to the players actually on the field, that is concerning, because it was as if they just kept going right headfirst into the wall and not changing direction, not changing tactic, just the same thing over and over and over again.

That's a problem because I don't. I don't either. They. They know what they're supposed to do to change it and they can't change it. Or what I fear is they have no idea how to change it, especially at this point.

David Mossy
That third midfielder spot alongside Rice and Bellingham has become very interesting. They started with Alexander Arnold. That didn't work. They then went to Gallagher. That didn't work.

And so they went to Mano today and I thought he looked pretty good. So that might be the answer moving forward. Now there's this larger narrative in England, this big story regarding Harry Kane's back and forth with the media and guys like Lineker and Alan Scheer, Kane feeling like their criticism is a bit out of line and those guys pushing back and saying, no, they're just doing their job. What do you make of all that? I'll tell you exactly what I said on air today.

Alexi Lawless
I mean, if the worst thing in your life is Gary Lenicker is going on national television and saying that you suck or that you need to do better or something like that, and then you go home to your mansion and you're getting paid multimillions of dollars a year to run around and play a kid's game, all right? And you have fame and fortune and attention, it doesn't mean you don't have problems in your life, don't get me wrong, but the reality is that you live a pretty charmed life. And when it comes to the press, all that I've heard, you know, all my life, and even recently, whether it's Daniel Sturge or anybody else is, ah, that, you know, there's so much pressure on this english team and the press is so that. Well, and then when you ask Garrison, are you listening to any of this? No.

Ask the players. Oh, you're listening to this? No. All right. Well, then, if you're not listening to it and you don't care about it, then there's no pressure.

And I don't understand what we're complaining about. I would love to see what this english team looked like if everybody was Kumbaya and everybody was unicorns and everybody was rainbows and everybody said, it's okay, guys, it doesn't matter if you win and everybody gets a trophy and second place is okay and all that kind of stuff, do they think that that's the way for them to actually bring it home? Here's what I would say about it, though. You don't have to have won a lot of trophies to be a pundit, to analyze a match, to critique a team's performance. But when you hear some of these former England players talk, there's a way they go about criticizing the team, that they act as if they won World Cups in euros.

David Mossy
We recently talked about how Ronaldinho criticized a Brazil team, and we debated whether it was appropriate or not for him to do so. But at least it's Ronaldinho. And when you see some of these brazilian legends who have won World Cups criticize the current Brazil team, it hits differently to me when I hear these english players from past generations who also didn't do anything in major tournaments either criticize the current team. So I think that's what Kane was pushing back on. He didn't like that.

The way they were criticizing them was almost acting as if they had done anything better. And, you know, Cain's point was like, you know, part of the reason why England carry all this baggage into major tournaments now. And even young players like soccer and Jude Bellingham have to carry this weight of all these decades of failure is because of what you guys did when you had an opportunity at these major tournaments. I bristle a little at that. Okay.

Alexi Lawless
Because. Okay, so that means that I shouldn't be commenting on World Cups. I shouldn't be commenting on somebody on a team that has won a World cup or a player that's won a World Cup. I probably shouldn't be commenting on goalkeepers. I probably shouldn't be commenting on women's soccer.

I mean, we can go on and on and on where there are examples of people that are commenting on something that they haven't necessarily done. But let's say you criticize the player for wearing a goatee at a World cup. Wouldn't that reflect the lack of self awareness on your part? That guy looks ridiculous running around with a goatee at a world cup and long hair. Well, no, the criticism can be criticized, all right?

And there is good and bad criticism, okay, but criticizing somebody because you have not done it, mossy, when you say something about soccer, okay, I listen. I don't care what you've done. I care that you have an interesting and entertaining take. That's the only thing that matters to me. I don't care what sex you are.

I don't care how old you are. I don't care what you've done, what medals you have won or haven't won. I just care that you're interesting and entertaining in the way that you do it. And you are my friend, because every single time you open your mouth, I could say, yeah, but you've never done that. You've never had to hit a cross in front of 70,000 people.

You've never had to go up for a corner kick when there's guys all around you. They're six foot tall. I could listen to that. But again, it's not just the general sense of criticizing. It's having some self awareness about your career.

David Mossy
Like if Luis Suarez becomes a pundit and he starts criticizing players for headbutting opponents or biting them, that would be a bit odd. Wouldn't that show nothing to do with. Because with what he played, that's just a hypocrisy. Okay. Yeah.

So these english players, some of their pundits players turn pundits. They come at them in a way. Boy, you're choking in major tournaments. I don't understand why you can't rise to the occasion in these major tournaments. And when you're guys yourselves, who in your careers didn't really come up big in the key moments, then that people do think that's a bit weird?

Alexi Lawless
No, no, I don't think it's weird. The whole point of punditry, or whatever you want to call it, all right, is to analyze the situation and to be honest in terms of your reactions. I guess to apply that to me, if I made fun of somebody having a weird typing style, that would be lack of self awareness. I don't know, Mossy. I think, look, I love listening to you talk about soccer, all right?

That you haven't played here or there means nothing to me. And I say that because some people will have conversations. I'll have a conversation in an airport or a bar or something like that. And people will preface it by saying, well, you would know better than me. Okay, yeah, I played the game, but that doesn't negate your ability to watch the game and to comment on it.

And I don't devalue it because you haven't. Because you haven't done that or haven't been there. I mean, that's just me, but that's. That's how I roll. And by the way, you saw my dribbling skills when we taped our new opening for the pod.

Yes. So I can play the game. Of course, none of that actually made it into the opening. John. His editing somehow didn't find that interesting.

It's all in the edit, buddy. It's all in the edit. All right, all right. We digress. Where should we go to now?

Where have we gone? Where haven't we gone? Denmark. Denmark, right. Yeah.

David Mossy
I do want to get into this because, as you know, I've been doing this research stuff for a long time, covering a lot of tournaments, having to keep track of scenarios and tiebreakers and all the rest. And I've never seen anything quite like what we had today. So for people that missed it. In Group C, Denmark and Slovenia finished level on points. Goal difference, goal scored, and head to head, they played to a one one draw, so it went to disciplinary points, and they seemingly were level on that.

They had each gotten six yellow cards across their three games. So people thought that you then had to take it back to qualifying. And even there they were in the same qualifying group, they finished level on points, but Denmark finished the head, thanks to the head to head tiebreaker. So people thought that's why Denmark was finishing above Slovenia. There were several articles written to that effect, but then it later surfaced that actually a Slovenia assistant coach got a yellow during the Denmark Slovenia game.

So that's what gave Denmark the edge on disciplinary points. So that's why they finished second and Slovenian finished third. And yet Denmark's quote, unquote, reward for finishing second is they get Germany in Dortmund in the round of 16. Well, at least it didn't go to the dreaded coin toss, because that, for me, is just brutal. Had Denmark and Slovenia played each other in the final group game and finished tight on everything, they would have had a penalty shootout to decide.

Alexi Lawless
Really? Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Well, I was next to Peter Schmeichel for the day and to see his emotions going up and down, and ultimately for them to go through. Either way, they're going through.

He was still happy and excited and proud, even though they're facing Germany. And again, while I think they recognize and respect the fact that this is Germany, I don't see this as. That they see it as a completely unwinnable game. More importantly, how was toddy when all this was going on? He's our crack researcher who, you know.

I mean, it was crazy. It was nuts. It was nuts on the field. It was nuts off the field, but it was fun. And we've had an incredible couple of days when it comes to these tournaments and the nunniness that are giving us.

All right. Anything else there when it comes to the games, monsieur, that you want to hit? No. So Group C finished England first, Denmark second, and Slovenia third, and Slovenia advance as one of the best third place finishers. And it was nice to see Slovenia after the game.

You saw how important it was to them, and they obviously needed, and they played very well. And I know we're talking about how poorly England play, but credit to Slovenia, too. All right, so we go to tomorrow. Let's do the euros first. It's the final day of group play.

David Mossy
We have the last two games in group B. And speaking of chaos, this is the first time in Euro's history that all four teams in a group have been level on points after two games going into the last set of matches. So nobody's advanced, nobody's been eliminated. You've got Ukraine facing Belgium and Slovakia taking on Romania. Belgium, Romania and Slovakia all move on with a draw.

Ukraine is the one team that might need to win tomorrow to go through. Oh, my goodness. I can't even imagine. And, you know, they have the communication between the two games and finding out what's going on. We just mentioned tiebreakers and all that kind of stuff, so mayhem is in store again, and I'm excited about this.

Alexi Lawless
Both of those games at 12:00 p.m. eastern, as you said, you came Belgium on big Fox and Slovakia Romania at noon on FS one. And I just mentioned that Slovakia and Romania, who play each other both, would advance with a draw. So anytime you have that scenario, people always evoke a famous 1982 World cup game between Germany and Austria, where they arranged the result. It's known as the disgrace in Gihon.

David Mossy
They arranged a certain result that they knew would qualify both teams at the expense of Algeria, and that's why the rule was changed. And the last set of group matches at World Cups now kick off at the same time to try to alleviate that somewhat but you still have it here. Two teams taking the field, knowing that a certain result benefits both of them. You played in Italy, so I'm sure you're well aware of two teams taking the field and agreeing on a certain result. Yeah, I can tell you stories.

All right, Group F. And then we have the last two games in Group F. Georgia versus Portugal, Czechia versus Turkey. Portugal already threw as group winners. The other three teams fighting to advance.

Georgia and Czechia both need to win. Turkey only need a draw. All right, so, look, I mean, the headline is, there's everything to play for, so come on back and join us because it's going to, I think, be another day of mayhem. We are going to revisit the Ronaldo assist to Bruno Fernandez. So you have another chance to wax poetic about Ronaldo's unselfishness, even though you know how much that will irritate me.

Alexi Lawless
Because you think it's just. It was just a logical soccer thing to do. Correct. And I don't disagree with you because you have not played at the highest level. Okay.

I just disagree with you because I think you're wrong. Incidentally, we have Czechia versus Turkey. The new name Bull. Right? I mean, and people are yelling at us about honoring this.

I thought that this was. This is what they want to be called. They rebranded, and from an english perspective, that's what the new name is. So we're just. We're just doing what they want.

David Mossy
To be fair, the turkey one, it's not any sort of cultural thing. They just didn't like that. When people googled their country name, they got the bird first. Right? True story, by the way.

Alexi Lawless
I mean, but it's a practical reality that, hey, your brand is your country, and when people are putting it in the computer and getting a gobble gobble, that's not going to work. Good. All right, what else? Copa America. And finally, we have two Copa America matches tomorrow, both in group B.

David Mossy
Ecuador versus Jamaica. Both those teams lost their opening game, so very important match for them. And then Venezuela, Mexico. Both those teams won their opening games. Ecuador, Jamaica is in Las Vegas.

Venezuela, Mexico is at Sofi in Los Angeles. Boy. Venezuela, Mexico here. Right? Right down the road here in Los Angeles at Sofi.

Alexi Lawless
That's going to be. That's going to be fun. I'm interested to see. Yeah, I'm interested to see what Jamaica brings, because I actually thought they were really good in their first game, so. All right, cool.

You ready to go for one for the road? Venezuela, Mexico at sofa. Feels like the sort of game that Fran Arthur will weasel her way to. And then the next morning, production meeting. I'll have to hear about what a great time she had.

It's. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time, right? No, that's. She weasels her way into different things. All right.

We love her. But, you know, I mean, is she even here anymore? Yes, we have two return spectators. Oh, I didn't realize that the mucky mucks were here. They just, you know, they're just looking over the shoulder.

All right. Yes. I would have done a much better show. Okay. Should we get to one for the road here?

David Mossy
Let's do it. Okay. Today we're going to talk a little bit. You know, we're coming off yet another messy day. Speaking of Fran and love affairs and all that kind of stuff.

Alexi Lawless
Well, the world has a love affair with Messi. But if we had a way to change the past, and I will readily admit that we decided to go with this because the show that shall not be named evidently was talking about this, and we are not above stealing from said show, or anybody else, for that matter. But if you were to go back in a time machine, because today we talked about how, what was it eight years ago when Messi was in the same situation, playing the same team against Chile and losing the Copa America, and then tears streaming down his face and obviously distraught for not being able to deliver and the weight of the world on his shoulders and the shadow of Maradona and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and even in that moment, quitting the national team, what if it had come to pass that that's exactly what happened, and he didn't come back and he didn't say, you know what? I'm not done, and come back and be this goat and win everything going forward. What if he had walked away?

What would the landscape look like? What would Argentina look like? What would the landscape of who the best players are look like? Obviously, you wouldn't have that hero villain. And I'm not saying which is which scenario between Ronaldo and Messi that has not just lasted, but has fueled plenty of conversations and content and joy over the years.

Would there have been others that would have emerged when it comes to Argentina? Maybe not in the way that. I mean, these are goats when we talk about Maradonas and Messis for a reason, in that they are not brief, shining moments, but these are. These are people that fundamentally change the way that we think about the team, the way that we think about the country and the way that we think about the game. And those don't just come along all the time.

So I think that if Messi had decided to walk away at that point, that Argentino still would have been a good team. World champion team. No, I don't think so. I think that the best players in the world would still be populated with the ones that we have right now. But I think the competition and the way in which we view Messi fundamentally changed the conversation.

Because, as said before, if you didn't know anything about soccer and didn't know who Messi was and you saw this guy walking down the street, there's no way that you would look at him and say, there goes arguably the greatest player ever to play the game. All right? He doesn't look like a superhero, like Cristiano Ronaldo. He doesn't look like a. A Viking, like Erlen Holland.

Okay? He doesn't look the part. And in doing so, I think that has made much of the difference in the way that we think about him, because he is so unassuming, because he is so diminutive, and because he is so antihero, if you will. And all of that is to say is, thank God he came back, because he has given us, obviously, incredible joy. He's given us that.

That character and that personality that oftentimes shuns the spotlight, but ultimately delivers and provides those moments of magic. I still think the game would be fine. I still think that we would be celebrating wonderful moments. I still think that we maybe would be anointing players as the next Maradona or anybody, anybody else out there. But all of that is to say is Messi is unique, and he's even in unique in the galaxy of stars and goats that we talk about because of a lot of the things that I just said.

Mossy, real quickly, how do you see the world and what it would look like? Well, first off, I remember that night like it was yesterday. We covered that final, Argentina, Chile at MetLife Stadium. Messi Sky's the penalty. Chile wins their second straight Copa America.

David Mossy
They had beaten Argentina on penalties the year before in Chile. And I remember we were doing our postgame show, and all of a sudden those messy comments surfaced on Twitter. And we looked at it and, boy, is he really saying what it sounds like. He's saying that he's going to retire. And so we put it on tv and we sort of framed it as this is sort of open ended.

It's vague. We don't know where this is going to go. And then the story really gained steam that he was actually going to retire from the national team. And then I think it was a month or two later, he walked it back. And, yeah, I mean, honestly, for me, the inflection point is he came back.

The 2018 World cup was a disaster with Jorge Sampoli. They went out in the round of 16 to France, and I honestly thought, well, that's it. He's not going to win a World cup in his career. And this whole sort of second life that he's had with Skaloni coming in and the team clicking the way it had and all the success that they've had the last few years, this is really. This was unexpected to me.

I thought we had sort of reached that point where it wasn't going to happen for him anymore with the national team. And, yeah, it's made it now where it's hard to argue with him being the goat. Had he stayed retired and not won a World Cup, Brazilians like myself would have still had that argument to use against him relative to Pele. Now that he checked off that box. I think we can still argue it.

Alexi Lawless
But he's making a much better case. So much so that for people that have followed me over the years, know that in this eternal and evergreen debate of Messi and Ronaldo, I have always fallen on the side of Ronaldo. And. And I continue to make a case. But I will say that because people have accused me.

Yeah, you don't like messing about. I have been wooed. I have been lured. I have been mesmerized. I have been infected in the best possible way, especially with his recent success and his arrival in America.

And so the way that I view Messi has only been enhanced over the last few years. Not just the last eight years of what's happened, but even over the last couple of years. I've always been a messy guy. But that Ronaldo assist the other day changed my mind. Well, what do you know?

You never played at the highest level. Right. So I just want to say, before we go, thanks again to Nick and Fran for attending, but the next step for us is to get Kat to actually sit in on one of our shows. Yeah, right? I mean, boys can dream, right?

I mean, at some point, somebody else is going to come down and, you know, higher and higher and higher. All right, we babbled on enough. We got to get some sleep. You don't have to do any work. So Mossy's going to go home and watch.

What are you watching? What you. House of the dragon. House of the dragon. Another episode of House of the Dragon.

We appreciate everybody in terms of all your downloading and reviewing and subscribing and doing all those things. Smash that button over there on the, on the YouTube thing. Smash it. Can't believe I'm doing this symbol here. All right.

Smash it. Smash it. Smash it. And thank you for subscribing, by the way. Over there on YouTube.

We're hitting some amazing numbers. Thank you to zillow as office, as often and always that we, that we. Do because they're put a smooth end to the show. Oh, God, I'm so tired, Mossy. I'm so tired.

We will talk to you again tomorrow. And until then, and as always, my friends, size the day.

Argentina late game heroics, England's struggles persist & Austria takes Group D

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1: Introduction

2: Argentina vs. Chile

3: England's Performance

4: Austria Surprises

5: Closing Thoughts

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