The Definition of Success with author Neil Strauss

Simon Sinek

In 2005, a book came out which sold millions of copies and stirred a lot of controversy. It was called the Game, written by Neil Strauss, and it's about the years Neil spent living amongst the pickup artist community, those awkward, borderline creepy guys who use manipulation tactics to pick up women. Neil has totally reinvented himself since writing the game and I wanted to speak with him about walking away from that identity of success. This led to a much deeper conversation about what success even is and what we owe ourselves versus what we owe society more. With Neil after this, AI might be.

Neil Strauss

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Neil Strauss

Dot code Summer.

Simon Sinek

Neil Strauss never intended for the game to become a manifesto for desperate guys trying to get laid or a feminist indictment against toxic masculinity. He just wanted to tell a story. Then the book did well, really well, and by any metric, was considered a wild success. But to Neil, meaningful success has to be something more than just money, more than just the finite wins. Does meaning have to be tied to outcomes, or is having the right intentions enough?

This episode comes with a bit of a warning. The conversation will raise more questions than it offers answers. As you will hear, Neil and I do not see eye to eye on everything, but the reason I love talking to him is because he makes me think he challenges my ideas. And I hope that's what this conversation does for you as well. I hope it challenges you about what the definition of success should be.

This is a bit of optimism. Your career is a fascinating one because a lot of people in sort of authors and stuff like that have an idea set, and they sort of build upon the idea set. You had an idea and got very famous for an idea set that you have almost entirely walked away from, which is the game. First of all, I want to know the history of how the game even came to be. I remember when it came out and the buzz that, the stir that it caused, it was quite a sensation in its day.

Yeah. I don't think it would come out today. Let's tell people what the game was, first of all. Yeah. So.

And I'll answer what the game was, the same as how it came about. So the one in the same thing, which is. And I already had a career prior to the game, meaning I was, like, writing at the New York Times as a music critic. And I go to all these concerts. I'd even go on tour with rock bands for writing for Rolling Stone.

So it'd be around a lot of energy, sexuality, those kinds of things. And I was super shy, really nebbish and nerdy, more so than I am now. And I wouldn't even be able to have this conversation if not for the game and look you in the eye and have this conversation and express myself. So I just saw everyone having all the fun. I was never the one having the fun.

You know, I went on tour with Motley Crue and thought, this is going to be decadence. And maybe it was, but not for me, right? I'd even go get backstage passes and hand them out, hoping to meet someone. They just say thank you, and go backstage doing something wrong. Why is everyone else again?

I was really lonely. And anyone I'd met, I'd end up in the friend zone while they're dating some guy who's a jerk to them, and I'm consoling them. I even remember I did a book on Marilyn Manson at the time, and his manager remembered a story where I think I had a crush on someone. I was painting their room while they went out on a date. I was just the worst.

Then I had a book editor. I'd done a couple books, and my book editor, HarperCollins, came to me and said, I found this undercover community. Pickup artists, and they're guys without money, looks, fame, and they've figured out how this whole thing works. Do you want to do a collective information to a how to book? I said, listen, I'm a journalist for the New York Times.

Got a serious career. That's not something I do. So, no, thanks. But thank you. Thanks for thinking of me.

But secretly, I'm like, there's a community where these guys know this stuff, so. And not having money, looks for fame. I thought, this is great. So I began this double, double life. Like, I changed my name.

I changed everything. I had this double life that I was actually scared of being found out. Yeah. Yeah. So I started meeting these guys, and their personalities, their ideas were so fascinating that I thought, oh, man, this is a book.

And so I remember when I wrote the book, I wanted to write under another name. I was so scared. A lot of guys used this book to pick up women, and it was described by the women as highly manipulative. So it's interesting what the book actually was versus how it was seen in the culture. Right.

There's a difference between the, say, the techniques the guys that pick up artists use in the book and what the book is like. The book literally begins. It's the funniest thing, by the way, and this isn't a bad thing. I don't mind. I think when you do create something, you throw it in the culture, and now it's out of your control.

Simon Sinek

Correct. And I'm happy they have any story about it. Like, I'm happy anyone's reading it or read it. So it begins with the greatest pickup artist in the world trying to kill himself over a woman. Like, he's suicidal.

It begins with me taking him to, like, a mental health crisis center. So is that really a book that says, this is gonna end up well for you? You know, it literally begins with that guy, and then the end is really about how it turns you in a robot and destroys your personality. And to me, the game, again, I was super naive at the time, but to me, the game was a book about male insecurity. And I literally thought, I really mean, this is when I wrote it.

I thought women would have more confidence when they saw how insecure and fearful men were. I have a female friend who read it specifically so she could know when men were gaming her, and she tells this great story of sitting on a plane and some guy is saying whatever he's saying, and I don't remember any of the principles, like, say something nice, then insult them, like, whatever. It was, some of these weird principles. And she literally turned him and goes, I read the game. You can stop.

Exactly. And there's so many sides to it, so complicated and nuanced. And for sure, it ends with Lord of the Flies. All these before toxic masculinity was a term. It ends with all these fake, self taught alpha males in a house all trying to out alpha male each other.

It's almost like, just become so toxic. It's kind of a book about bro culture, isn't it? I mean, it's like, that's what it is. Here's the difference. It's a book about neurodivergence.

Bros don't read this book. Bros, they're already like, you know, they don't need this. They're too cool. You know, they've already got off most of the people I met. And by the way, there were a few real monsters in that world, for sure.

Most of them met were neurodivergent people who were trying to figure out how to socially interact and just needed a map. I mean, I struggled with dating most of my life, and I've talked about this publicly, a lot of ADHD. And so I overcompensated for the ADHD by jacking up with coffee before a date out of fear of not being funny, of not being charming. And so I needed to get the boost of energy for the evening, and I would come in like a bull in a china shop, you know, and just, I thought it was very funny and charming. Problem was, I was doing all the talking, you know, I get it that it's a story for neurodivergence.

Simon Sinek

I wonder what you said you could never write that again. Today you said, a, why? And b, what about the principles that you learn in the game? Could be translated for people who are struggling with neurodivergence and meeting people today. I think you can still learn the same things, but without the agenda or the goal of an outcome.

Like, how do I start a conversation with someone? How do I get comfortable with myself? How do I actually connect?

How do I ask somebody who I meet online out in person, what's a good way to do that? So the difference is your goal to connect or is your goal to take? And I think that's what happens. Yeah, I think intention matters. So just share one of the tips.

Simon Sinek

If somebody. How to make somebody feel heard and seen, what are some of the good tips? That, because I think people do struggle to connect. A lot of us are struggling to connect these days, and there's much said about addictions to cell phones and social media being disconnected. COVID, blah, blah, blah.

The list goes on. So what are some of the really great human skills that you've learned that actually do help in genuine connection without some sort of agenda? I think I'd have to ask that question with me now versus me. Then. Let's do that.

I guess when the book came out, I got a lot of calls from salespeople, marketing people. The FBI called me to come in and train their agents. So, like. So I think those applications, it's really just understanding social dynamics, and I think it's really important. So the first step, I think, is just really understanding social dynamics and how they work and what people want and what they're looking for and what their agenda is.

So I think one step is just really understanding social dynamics. But I would say, like, the biggest thing is to stop worrying about what other people think of you and start realizing that they're worrying about what you think of them. I'd say the most freeing thing I learned then I think it's even more that I do it maybe ten x more now, is that I was really worried. I was walking around, everyone's just laughing, they're pointing, they're like, look at that guy. Sure, he's got a big nose.

He's like, nerd. He's a loser, whatever it is. And then you realize, no, they're all worrying about being judged by you. So instead of trying to take validation from other people, giving people validation. Yeah.

Simon Sinek

That is a wonderful insight. While we're all walking around worried about what people think of us, what we don't realize is they're walking around worried about what people think of them. That is such a brilliant insight. And to operate from that point of view and to make somebody feel seen or heard or understood is about the best thing you can give to someone. Yeah, and even here's an example of how we don't do it.

So we're in LA, I'd say you're at the LA stand and someone pulls up in a bright yellow, loud Lamborghini and gets out. And right away you want to be like, oh, what a douchebag, right? Or what an asshole, or whatever it is. But instead you just want to say like, hey, nice car, man. Like that person just wants, they drive around that thing because they just want some validation.

Simon Sinek

Drive a car in bright yellow if you didn't want people to see you. So there's an exercise, again, like, I really do think they're to be seen. Yeah. So there's an exercise where you, to get over social anxiety, you go out and try to make three or four people feel better about themselves that day by saying something kind about them. The best way to solve your problems is to help other people solve the same problem.

I've talked about the twelve step programs of Alcoholics Anonymous or any other twelve step program. They know that if you master the first eleven steps but not the 12th, you're likely to succumb to the disease. But if you mask the 12th step, you will more likely overcome the disease. And the 12th step is to help another alcoholic, which is service. If I'm struggling with how to find love, how to find a job, how to find happiness, the best way to do it is to help somebody I care about.

Find love, find a job, find happiness. For sure, being other oriented instead of self oriented is a nice way to put it. And I think we'd probably be a better world that way in really like not being needy, energy. So the other side is like one of my pet peeves is when somebody says, you know what, I did that for them and they did nothing for me and they didn't repay that. Like people get so upset if they do something kind for someone and that person then doesn't return the favor.

Do something kind with for them. Like you do kindness just as an end in itself, right? So there are people who go out and maybe give people compliments or they listen to people, they try to help them, but they're trying to get something for it. They make that connection because they want. So you really have to do it purely with no neediness.

I think the biggest turn off is when someone's just too needy. Do you still see yourself the same way as you did when you wrote the game? No, not at all. Barely. I really think the bigger transformation I had was no surprise, was going to sex addiction rehab.

So that was really the bigger transformation. So clearly, there were things that led me to the game that came not from the game itself, but came from my upbringing. So I think the bigger the game, maybe to me, the benefit of what I learned in the game was it showed me that I can change that. And then I think then it was questionable, even if you recognize the game, what drew me into the game? What seduced me by that lifestyle?

Why did I become so obsessed with it? What was wrong with me? Even if the book, even at the end, I said, oh, this is bad. What caught me up in that and everything? And so I remember I was having a dinner with two other writers who wrote probably the most famous books on seduction, that kind of thing.

And we were just talking. We found out we had the same kind of mother figure in our lives. And I said, well, that makes sense. It's a fear of the feminine. And trying to figure out the tactics and the techniques is to make you safe from something you feared because you grew up with a toxic narcissist.

Simon Sinek

Okay, I can't leave this behind. What did you learn at sex addiction counseling? Reform. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I learned, like, before. Then I thought I was the normal one who wrote about all the eccentric, damaged people, the pickup artists in the game, the rock stars, you know, for Rolling Stone.

And then I realized, I remember this moment where you do your timeline. Did you ever have to do your timeline? And so I wrote down all my peak positive memories and peak negative memories from zero to 17. Sat there. Therapist is across from me.

And she goes, well, you know why? You've never been in a healthy relationship? I'm like, no. And she goes, because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you. And that's when, as surreal, as weird as that sounds, like, even at the time.

And she's like, and there's a name for that. It's called emotional incest. And I'm like, what the? Well, my logical brain is going, what the fuck? But my body felt this truth about it.

All of a sudden, all my childhood stuff made sense again, just to go to overshare, like, being grounded all the time, like massaging her hand, like, her coming in my room and complaining about how my dad was in bed, not being cut off when I wanted to live with a girl in college or something. All of a sudden, everything just made sense. My body felt the truth of that. And I think it's true that in the culture, we understand abandonment when a parent's not there physically or emotionally, but we don't recognize enmeshment because it feels. It's like falsely elevating.

Like, abandonment is you feel like nothing, but when you're enmeshed, you're like, oh, I'm mom or dad, special person. They talk to me. They share this stuff with me, or I make them feel better when they're sad. I take care of the family. It's sort of falsely empowering, and so it's hard to see and recognize.

And then I recognized, and I realized that there was a part of me that was afraid to just be vulnerable and surrender because I was afraid of being swallowed up. Again.

Simon Sinek

Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, you're very open. Did that come from being around people who are struggling and being forced to be open, or have you always been. There's a difference between open with yourself, which is difficult, and then being open out loud. Yeah, I mean, I think two reasons.

One is, I think maybe when I was writing for Rolling Stone, I would always encourage, as an interviewer, being on the other side of it. I really try to get people comfortable to be open, and then also honored that when I shared it, I would never do a gotcha thing. So when I was on the other side of the microphone, I did recognize that I need to give what I wanted. The other side of it is like, my whole goal is just to be a health, continue working to be a healthier person. And I think if you create a split between who you are and who you present, that's super unhealthy.

Simon Sinek

I think that's most people, right? I mean, some sort of artifice is required. Like, when you meet people in professional, personal context, we all want to project something, sort of confidence. We can't project defeatism. We'd never make friends.

I mean, there's always a bit of artifice. And I think this is where relationships, you become vulnerable. You start to break down the artifice. But to your point, which is if we never break down the artifice, then that's unhealthy. Yeah, I think there's lines of what's healthy and unhealthy.

So I think healthy is being vulnerable. And then the other line is healthy shame. Healthy. Shame is what we need to have a little bit of shame, because everyone's in this world. If we get rid of shame, shame is bad.

Every emotion is good in the right degree. Healthy shame is, well, we're gonna wear clothes when we're together. You know, we are going to. Depending on where we're getting together, I guess. Exactly.

Simon Sinek

It's like show up on the first date with no clothes. How can you? I have no shame. Exactly. We're all wounded.

Have you no shame is actually an expression. Exactly. Exactly. Like all our wounds. Like all our wounds came from people who were shameless.

My mom was shameless with her boundaries around me. People were shameless with. Let's say that again, all of our wounds come from others who were shameless. Yes. They had no shame, which is they violated boundaries.

Simon Sinek

And that lack of shame created woundedness. So draw the line for me, because we are all the products of our upbringing, warts and all. Where is the line of accountability that we say, look, I am like this because I was enmeshed with my mother. I'll say, for me, my accountability is 100% mine. In other words.

So regardless, it doesn't matter how your mother treated you. I'm responsible. You're responsible for your behavior. I see myself. Cause I don't wanna speak for other people.

I see for myself. I'm responsible for the stories I made up about that. And so that allows me to then change. Cause if I'm responsible, then I'm in control of changing it. So I see for me that those are variables that occurred.

These variables help me understand myself. So there's no blame involved. I mean, certainly there are cases where people are straight up perpetrators. There's a place for everything in the healing process. The healing process, to me, is sort of a few steps you go through at certain times.

And just like you were saying, the twelve step of AA is the service. I think the end of the healing process, if you're trying to heal something, is the forgiveness piece where you actually, and again, most people never get there. I understand it's really challenging for some people, but that piece of forgiveness, that you can forgive yourself and even let go of any energy you hold around the other person, and that's real freedom. We'll be right back.

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Simon Sinek

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I'm Ilya Kani, and this is family therapy. My best hopes, I guess, identify the life that I want and work towards it. I never seen a man take care of my mother the way she needed to be taken care of. I get the impression that you don't feel like you've done everything right as a father. Is that true?

Simon Sinek

That's true, and I'm not offended by that. Thank you for. For going through those things. And thank you for overcoming them. Thank God for the limits.

Every time I have one of our sessions, our sessions, be positive. It just keeps me going. I feel like my focus is redirected in different aspects of my life now. So how do we do today? We did good.

The black effect presents family therapy. Listen now on the Black effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

There'S two kinds of people. I want to get your thought on. This because people who believe there are. Two kinds of people and everyone else, there's just one kind of person like them. Exactly.

So there's people who, like, try to bring others down to get to like them, or those people who kind of. Like to raise themselves up to feel better about yourself. There are many things you can do. You can lift others up or you can bring others down. I think that's true.

And I guess my question or something I'm just seeing in the culture now, there's so much criticism of trying to bring others down. Yes. I can even see it, having been a journalist for a long time. Like something. Mark Zuckerberg's a sex symbol now, right?

Or something. I don't know. I would see. People were literally like, oh, he looks hot with that gold chain or I don't know what is going on. And he wants his AI to be open source somehow.

Mark Zuckerberg, I see him going back up on the pendulum in this moment, in this exact moment, wherever. But the culture likes to take people and kind of bring them down as soon as they get big. And when they're little, they want to bring them back up. What do you think that is in the culture that we have to. If someone gets too arrogant or too big, they have to be sort of kept in check.

Kept in check. I think we've become a very finite society where the idea of vision and idealism is almost lost. And leaders do not speak in idealized terms anymore. They don't speak of imaginary futures that will never exist. I have a dream all men are created equal.

Simon Sinek

Ask not what your country can do for you shining city on a hill these are all idealized states of the world that will never exist. But we'll try and build them. When there's vision and there's idealism, we all share in that vision, or a lot of people will share in that vision. And we feel community, and we feel supportive of the people in that community. Lack of vision means it's every man for themselves.

It's every person for themselves. And we've doubled down on rugged individualism. And so if I'm insecure, I cannot bear the thought that you're happy when I'm not. And it's easier for me to bring you down than lift me up, because that's hard work. And I feel very alone.

I think everybody feels like they're forced to be on this journey by themselves. I think we've been on this road of feeling lonely and feeling like we've heroized CEO's. It used to be the company, now it's the person. And that's the problem, which is we now live in a world of I am the genius, or I'm not the genius. I am the success, or I'm not the success.

And we've completely forgotten that. We're social animals. And all of these things can only happen with the love and help of others. I am not successful. And I've even shared this with my friends.

I say I'm the front man, so people, give me all of the love. But make no mistake of it, anything that I've accomplished in the world, you do some of the credit. You were there for me when I couldn't. You were there for me when I doubted myself. You believed in me when nobody else did.

And there's no way I can take all the credit. But I guess the other question I'm thinking is just, well, what is success? Everybody's in their own lane. I'm just thinking about what you said as far as make sure everyone gets a credit on your team. But then I also think that everybody has a wheelhouse where they're great and where they're trying to improve and try to be better and recognizing them for that, somebody who makes that choice to just not work and raise a family or not work and just travel the world with their partner, or to sacrifice family and travel and adventures to try to create art or create political change, like everything is equally valid.

And it goes back to my, I'm realizing it's fun having this talk because I'm realizing how I think versus you not asking me the standard sort of questions that in the book of ecclesiastes, in the Bible, the advice is, and I'm not even a religious person, but it's about, grow your own garden, plant it, grow this beautiful garden. And no, it doesn't really make a difference, but just be happy doing it. And I think if everyone's finding the thing that they like doing enough and they're creating something more beautiful or something that doesn't hurt others, I think there's not much to it. I don't know if I agree with that. Go ahead.

Simon Sinek

I think that's selfish. You know, we are individuals and members of groups. We're social animals, but we're also ourselves. And yes, you're you, but you're also a father, a friend, a member of a community, you know, a partner, you know, like, you have social responsibility. And you, your behavior does have real and significant impact on the lives of others.

As you've explained about your own mother. Right. Had significant impact in your life. And so I do believe that we have a personal responsibility to plant our gardens and just be satisfied. Yes, as an individual, but as a member of a group, I think we do have a responsibility to leave this world in better shape than we found it.

If you work for a company, leave the company in better shape than you found it. Leave this country in better shape than you found it. Leave your family in better shape than you found it. How do you, that old parable of the horse, the zen parable of the horse, do you know that one? Let's go on.

It's like, how do we know that we're really going to make a better shape? What's the parable? The parable is. And just stop me if you know it. But the farmer, I'm going to butcher, like, everything.

But the farmer. You're going to butcher the horse? I'm going to butcher the horse, like, everything. Yes. So there's a farmer and his horse runs away, and everyone's like, that's a horrible thing.

That sucks. You need them for your farm. He goes, I don't know if it's good or bad. We'll see. Horse comes back and brings a bunch of other horse, wild horses back with him.

And they're like, look at you now. You have like, five horses. You're like the richest farmer in the whole territory. Look at you. That's amazing.

It's like, I don't know if it's amazing or it's not amazing. We'll see. Then his son's right in the horse, and his son falls off, like, breaks his leg really badly. Can't walk. May never walk the same again.

Like, oh, man, that sucks. That happened to your horse. If only that horse hadn't brought all those other horses back. He's like, I don't know if it's good or bad. We'll see.

The next thing, there's a draft, and the son isn't drafted because he broke his leg and it saves his life. And the story goes on and on and on. And you could go create the biggest, best, fulfill your exact mission, and maybe because of that, someone else reacts against it and creates a bunch of evil in the world. We don't know the outcome of what we're doing. In the big, big picture, there's so much complicated cause and effect that you may save someone's life and they may go on to kill ten people, right?

Like, you know, that that was the right thing to do. And now ten people are dead because, you know, we don't know the. I always have the say. I have the saying, the outcome is not the outcome. Like, that's just a finite outcome, right?

It goes back to everything we're saying about the contract. But I'm saying, what I'm saying, but here's what I'm saying is that doesn't. Mean to responsibility for contribution just because it might not work out in the short term. Because then to your own story, which is, by the way, the quintessential story for infinite mindedness, which is. Yes, but then, but then, but then, but then, like, we don't know.

Simon Sinek

Okay, what I'm saying is be responsible. For what you're actually responsible for. Don't assume that my goal, like, I think when we're saying there's no effect you can control outside of yourself. I think we might be. I think we're saying the same thing.

I think we're in violent agreement here, which is control the things you can control. Be responsible for things you're responsible with, but do it with an eye of contribution. Yeah, I mean, I think, again, I don't know. I don't want to tell people. For some people, contributing may not be the right thing.

I am happy to tell people that contribution is a thing. There might be people who really just want to live this life and be alone and not be bothered and just read books. I don't know. It's okay. I want to say it's okay not to contribute.

It's okay. I need to think about that example, because that example is, except if you're Ted Kaczynski, where you literally are a person who's removed yourself from society. Right. And by the way, he couldn't fully do it. He had to go threaten the world.

I am saying be responsible for other people. Don't do things that you know that intentionally. Cause contribution is such a low bar, right? Like ordering a cup of coffee and saying please and thank you. Well, that's healthy shame, right?

Simon Sinek

Like contribution. Like to go into the world and make sure that you make someone's life that you interacted with just slightly better. Right? So. But here's.

Here's where we. Such a low bar, but here's where we're differing. Let's go here. Cause there's a little hair to split, but let's split it for fun because like you said, we're violently agreeing. So my thought is.

Simon Sinek

My thought is next on this episode of splitting hairs. By the way, splitting hairs is incredibly fun for us. It's incredibly painful for other people to listen to. You can cut it all out. I don't care.

It's just you and I talk. I don't care about her. It's just you and I have a conversation. You want to contribute. I want to have a good conversation with you.

You want to contribute to all those people. I just want to have a great conversation with you. Selfish bastard.

Simon Sinek

We'll be right back.

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I'm Elliot. Connie, and this is family therapy and. Our best hopes, I guess, identify the life that I want and work towards it. I never seen a man take care of my mother the way she needed to be taken care of. I get the impression that you don't feel like you've done everything right as a father.

Is that true? That's true, and I'm not offended by that. Thank you for going through those things, and thank you for overcoming them. Thank God for deliverance. Every time I have one of our sessions, our sessions be positive.

It just keeps me going. I feel like my focus is redirected in a different aspect of my life now. So how'd we do today? We did good. The black effect presents family therapy.

Listen now on the Black effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Tameka D. Mallory, and it's your. Boy, my son in general. And we are your hosts of TMI. New year, new name, new energy, but same old.

And catch us every Wednesday on the black effect network, breaking down social and civil rights issues, pop culture, and politics in hopes of pushing our culture forward to make the world a better place for generations to come. But that's not all. We will also have special guests to add their thoughts on the topics, as well as break down different political issues with local activists in their community. If you like to be informed and to expand your thoughts, listen to TMI on the Black effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. That's right.

So, and really, like, our whole thing on this, too, is like, is this, what if I go out and I say please and thank you when I'm ordering my coffee? That's just the right thing to do. But I don't have the, I'll just say extreme for fun, but the arrogance of thinking this is making their life better, because that guy walked in and said, please and thank you. It goes back to your standard of intention. No, it goes back to, you don't know what's right for other people.

All I know is right. By the way, I know this. There's cultural differences. Right? So in the United States, if I'm in a restaurant, almost always I'll ask the server, what's your name?

Simon Sinek

It's considered polite in this country. And then I can say, thanks, Stacey, every time something comes to the table. And that's considered a good thing. Not so in Norway. I was in Norway and sat down and asked the server her name, and she said, why?

I was like, so I be polite. Just trying to contribute here. That's what I do. I'm a contributor. What does it matter?

You don't ask the server their name. It's considered incredibly uncouth, and they're all introverts anyway. And so closing those intimate gaps freaks them all out. So it is cultural. The differences are sometimes cultural, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't learn how to contribute consistent with whatever the norms and values are of Norway.

Define contribute as you see it. Okay. We talked about accountability and responsibility so that I am accountable and responsible for my actions and my words, and will attempt to go through life in a way that my actions and my words leave whatever situation I'm in slightly better than when I showed up. And it's a very. That's a hard standard because you can't do it all the time, obviously.

Simon Sinek

But I think as an ambition, I would like to know that my friends have a better life because I'm in their lives. So can we do the right thing without needing to be responsible for the outcome? Can we do the right. Can we still have the motivation to do the right thing with others at all time without taking on responsibility for the outcome?

That's a hard question. I think the answer is yes. Like, if your intentions are good, I think it's hard to fault you, you know, and the means matter more than the ends. So here's my thought here. I think I figured out the hair.

You guys wake up. Now I figure out the hair. This is it. You and I say the same thing, but we're drawing the responsibility, the boundary of responsibility, at different places. Say more.

So my boundary is right here. You bound for those who are not looking vigilant. Neil has just made a line in. The air between him and I because we are no longer friends after this. The boundary is here.

So what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this. All I can control are my. So in my. All I can control is myself.

All I control is myself and myself. That I 100% agree. So, in other words, I cannot control you or anything else. I want to contribute. So let's say I want to contribute to your life, and I say, take that trip you always want to take.

And then the, but I'm not responsible. Whether you take it or not or. No, I'm not responsible for the plane. What I'm saying is. What I'm saying is, with your things, I want to contribute.

So you have to. If you want to contribute, then it means you also have to take responsibility if your effort to contribute ends in a disaster. So I encourage you to take that trip you've always wanted to measure, and the plane crashes. You're now responsible if you're in the afterlife. By your version, God then gives you the scorecard and say, here are all the people you interacted with.

These people's lives got better. These people's lives got worse. I knew, try to do the right thing, but unfortunately, it's like 74 to 22. So I'm sending you to hell.

Simon Sinek

My God, you're cynical. No, I'm not cynical, but I'm saying it. No, I'm not cynical. And I'm not even gonna say that I'm healthier, because I'm really just saying, if I'm saying I want to make sure I contribute to everything around me, it's different. My intention is to contribute to contributing it, then it's really exhausting because I'm responsible for all the outcomes.

All the outcomes. No, you're not responsible for the outcome, just like it's. I mean, whether we're right or wrong, whether this is good or bad, is irrelevant. What I really like about this conversation is anyone who's listening is forced to think about this. We're forced to think about, or they're.

Forced to just press the two x button. We're forced to just skip to another podcast, buy supplements. Okay, so let me just try to summarize the points that we move on, which is this. See if this sounds right to you. Okay.

I think what we both share is where you're trying to be kind and do the right thing and be thoughtful about the way you interact with each other. My version is, that's enough. In an end, in itself, you're adding the extra piece of the thought and the goal of contribution. Yes. Okay.

Did it. We should just do our own podcast. Philosophical hairsplitting with Neil and son, back. To what I said. I really listen closely, and I really want to understand.

I don't want to. I mean, I both want to understand for myself there's something to learn or to like to think about that. But I really sense a theme in what you're saying, which is like, you really sort of. Here'S what somebody said to me once, right? I got this advice.

Simon Sinek

This is literally how they delivered it. I got this advice once from someone. They said, Simon, you live in the world, right? Like, you're not alone. Like, you live in a world.

There are other people. There are interactions. And, like, you can't be completely blind to that just because you. Because then your own definition of kind, your own definition of kind has to be relative to the world you live in. And what I would say is, you live in your world, and he live in his world, and I live in my world.

And we also live in this world. Your world interacts with my world, whether you like it or not. And my story interacts with your story, and his story interacts with our story. And we're all living out of these very different stories. You have a contribution story.

I have uncertainty story. Right. And this is just two stories. Two stories meeting. So the point being is this.

I see the world in terms of story. In terms of, like, everybody's got a story. Wars are fought over stories we need. We're being surrounded by enemies. Everything's story, either.

People have a story they tell themselves, people have a story they sell to others. People have these stories. So what I'm playfully challenging is saying, well, it's good that we buy our own story, and it's good if our story adds something good to the world, but maybe at the end of the day, recognizing we're just trying to live a story you believe in and believe it's the right thing. In the end, we really don't know. And that's my positive note for this.

But I think accepting uncertainty is part of happiness. We're completely in alignment. By the way, my talk of contribution doesn't eliminate anything you say. And I think uncertainty is a large part of it, which is why everything we're talking about, like the fact that we even have a conversation about this and we really are splitting hairs, we. Are in the weeds.

Simon Sinek

The reason is for one reason and one reason only, which is uncertainty. I don't actually know, and neither do you. We have no idea. And I find that magical and empowering, because uncertainty is the place where things can happen. Yeah, I mean, I think also if people accepted uncertainty, we'd be living in a better, safer, happier world.

So hard for people to accept. On that note, Neil, you always get me thinking. Even though this is the end of the conversation, this won't be the end of me thinking about the questions you've raised. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsineck.com, for classes, videos, and more.

Simon Sinek

Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. A bit of optimism is a production of the Optimism company. It's produced and edited by David Ja and Greg Reutershan, and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer.

Oh, hi. I'm Rachel Zoe, and my podcast, climbing in heels, is back and better than ever. You might know me from the Rachel Zoe project, or perhaps from my work as a celebrity stylist. And guess what? I'm still just as obsessed with all things fashion, beauty, and business.

Climbing in Heels is all about celebrating the stories of extraordinary women, and this season is here to bring you a weekly dose of glamour, inspiration, and fun. Listen to climbing in heels every Friday on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Diosa. And I'm Mala. We are the creators of Locatora Radio, a radiophonic novella, which is a fancy way of saying a podcast.

Neil Strauss

Welcome to Locatora Radio. Season nine. Love at first listen, we're older, we're wiser, and we're podcasting through a new decade of our lives. This season, we're falling in love with podcasting all over again and getting to. The heart of our stories.

We're going places we've never gone before, and we're bringing you along with us. With new segments, correspondence, and a brand new sound. Season nine is kicking off with an intimate interview with Grammy award winning singer songwriter Natalia La Forcade. What's giving you hope right now? Well, when I see what music does to people, it gives me a lot of hope.

Neil Strauss

If you liked locatora before, you're gonna love season nine. Subscribe to our show and you'll see why Locatora is your prima's favorite podcast. Listen to Locatora Radio as part of the Michael Tura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The Black effect presents family therapy, and I'm your host, Elliot. Connie Jay is the woman in this dynamic who is currently co parenting two young boys with her former partner. David. David, he is a leader. He just don't want to leave me.

But how do you lead a woman? How do you lead in a relationship? Like, what's the blueprint? David, you just asked the most important question. Listen to family therapy on the Black effect podcast network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

The Definition of Success with author Neil Strauss

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: The Journey from "The Game" to Today

2: Rethinking Success

3: Impact of Social Dynamics

4: The Role of Authenticity

5: Concluding Thoughts on Success

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

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Transcript