The Power Broker #04: Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Roman Mars

This episode is brought to you by progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Quote now@progressive.com to see if you could save progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. National average twelve month savings of $744 by new customer surveyed who saved with progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary.

Discounts not available in all states and situations.

This episode is brought to you by PNC bank some things should be boring, like banking. Boring is safe and reliable. You don't want your bank to be surprising. Surprising is for podcasts about seemingly insignificant inventions that impact our lives, not banks. PNC bank strives to be boring with your money so you can be happily fulfilled with your life.

PNC bank brilliantly boring since 1865 brilliantly boring since 1865 is a service mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank National association member, FTC this is the 99% invisible breakdown of the power broker I'm Roman Mars. And I'm Elliott Kalin. Today we'll be covering pages 283 to 401 in my book, chapters 16 through 20. And this is the middle section of part four, the use of power and our special guest for today's book club is representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez.

She represents the New York 14th congressional district, which is home to a number of Robert Moses infrastructure projects and atrocities. And it is also the congressional seat once held by Fiorella LaGuardia, who makes his first appearance in this section of the book. We have a long, fun, enlightening discussion with AOC after we do the book summary.

So when we left off last episode, in a stunning turnabout, young idealist reformer Robert Moses has turned around and embraced corruption and dirty dealings to get things done. And this is the freight train that has been coming at us from page. One, the heel turn is taking place. And as a result, in three years, with the backing of Governor Al Smith, he massively expanded the amount of public park space in New York state. He turned Jones beach into the world's greatest weekend spot and built expressways leading to all that stuff.

And he has become this absolute hero to New Yorkers. He's seen as this man who stands up to the wealthy and he can get stuff done. He creates parks for the people, even though we've seen that, you know, he will totally get in bed with these powerful people to make his projects possible. And he will ruin some small time farmers. He does some dastardly stuff, but the public doesn't see that they just see these beautiful parks he's made.

And this public idea of Robert Moses and the private reality of how Moses gets things done are really diverging at this point and through this. And the reason why he's able to get all this stuff done is he has the support of Al Smith. And unfortunately, in 1928, Al Smith runs for and loses the presidency. He cannot run, run for president and run for governor at the same time. So he goes for the presidency.

He reaches for that brass ring. He does not reach that brass ring at all. And Robert Moses is left trying to do the things he's trying to do. But there's a new governor in office. And this is the man who Cairo promises will be one of Moses most powerful enemies.

He is known as the Feather Duster, which is the title of chapter 16. Who is the feather duster? As you can guess, the feather duster from his name is a figure of power, a figure of strength, a figure of intimidation. And I'd like to start getting into that chapter with the opening of that chapter, which I love so much. It says, there's an expression used in Albany to describe the relationship of two men between whom there exists bad feeling, when that feeling has existed for years, has resisted every attempt at reconciliation, and has only deepened with the passage of time to a point where dislike is not so fitting a name for it as hatred.

Elliott Kalin

In discussing two such men, one assemblyman will say to another with a knowing shake of his head, they go back a long way. Robert Moses and Franklin Delano Roosevelt went back a very long way. That's right. It's Franklin Roosevelt. We've all heard of him.

Right? Roman, you're familiar with the name Franklin Delano Roosevelt, right? Once or twice he's come up. Yeah, he comes up sometimes in the talk of american history. But, so we all know who this guy is.

He's eventually going to become one of the massive figures of the 20th century. He's gonna be known as FDR. But this is the pre presidency FDR. This is not yet the four time elected president, rallying America through the depression, fighting most of world War two. Franklin Roosevelt.

At this point, Franklin Roosevelt is just a snooty state politician with a very famous last name. His distant cousin was president, and that gets him a lot in the political world of the early 20th century. And something I wanna point out before we get into the death rivalry between Roosevelt and Moses, which doesn't really seem to hamper Moses that much, to be honest, is that Carrow seems to be making a real point of never saying FDR, but instead saying Roosevelt. He always says Roosevelt or Franklin Roosevelt. And I wonder if that is to keep us from bringing to his discussion of Roosevelt all the kind of mythic freight that even by 1974, when this book came out, had already been accumulated by FDR.

I think he wants us to remember this is not FDR the titan. This is Franklin Roosevelt, the upstate New York politician. And so I want us to try to follow that. It's very hard. I was going through my notes and I kept saying FDR in them, but I want to try to incentivize us not to say FDR.

So every time we say FDR instead of Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, we're going to have to put a quarter into this jar. Insert jar, sound effect. That's the FDR jar. If we say FDR, we got to put a quarter in there. So, Roman, I'm going to need you to be honest with me on this.

I hope you have quarters in your pocket. Yeah, I do. I have plenty of quarters. And I think this is totally right because this is actually a point that is brought up a lot in the Lyndon Johnson books. Is that because Lyndon Johnson is so obsessed with FDR and is this acolyte of FDR, he actually, like, insists that people call him LBJ and he'll do this thing, he'll go like, FDR, LBJ, FDR, LBJ.

Roman Mars

See, see? Sorry, sorry. I have a middle name and he is a middle name. We're the same guy and he does that. And it must have just burned his ass that JFK came along before him to usurp the initials as an icon.

But what it reminds me of, our guest for this episode later on is AOC, which she entered the stage as a national figure very quickly. And that three initial nickname really became part of her brand. It's funny how in the United States, I don't know if it's in other countries. I apologize, foreign listeners, if this is a thing you also do that the three initial branding became such a branding tool. Like you're saying after FDR, eventually we had JFK.

Elliott Kalin

Harry S. Truman was never Hst and David Eisenhower was never a dde. But that JFK and then LBJ and that, it's such a, there's a rhythm to it that is so inescapable, I guess, if the letters allow it. And it's such a way of attaching yourself to the feeling that comes off of, I assume, FDR. And I have to assume that FDR started being called that partly because Teddy Roosevelt or Theodore Roosevelt, who hated being called Teddy, his dis cousin when he was president, was often known as TR.

And maybe it was FDR, was like, I'm one better. I've got another letter in my name and fr sounds weird. I don't know. I had this sort of a hypothesis that was sort of forming in my head that maybe the middle name has to be kind of a long, three syllable middle name for it to work. But that's not true because of LBJ, because Bane's is just one syllable.

Yeah. Just one amazing, amazing syllable. It gets its own letter. You should do nine MPI episode about initials. I don't know why you haven't done that yet.

Roman Mars

I mean, I have done some reading about middle names because what's notable is that John Quincy Adams being our first sort of middle name known president is if actually a very early example of an American with a middle name. Oh, yeah. Which is kind of interesting. That's true. Middle names don't go back that far.

They do not. But John Quincy Adams is. Because since his dad, John Adams, was also president, I assume that the president's guild said they can't have two John Adams. You have to register your middle name also the same way that, like, Michael J. Fox had to register his middle initial because there's already a Michael Fox in the guild.

Elliott Kalin

Anyway, that's enough initial talk. So Franklin Roosevelt, he is a democratic politician, but he is a state democratic politician in the New York state Democratic Party at the time. Roosevelt and the Al Smith Circle, which is the city Democrats, they have this relationship based on need. Al Smith is part of this irish Catholic, Tammany urban environment. And they need the help of someone like Roosevelt to get the upstate Protestant, Tammany hating, city hating country folk.

Which is funny because I think a lot of people, if you're not from New York state, you kind of assume New York City and New York state are kind of the same thing. And it is, especially at the time, a huge state compared to other states. And the outside of the city areas are very different from the city itself. But Franklin Roosevelt, he has the trust of those kind of upstate farmers that make up the backbone of the state Republican Party. Because in 1911, he stopped the Tammany candidate from being appointed to the US Senate.

And that made him some enemies in the Tammany side, but made him kind of a name people trusted outside of the city. And also, as we mentioned, he's got that famous name people love, Theodore Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt, this is, you know, served as president, had the most successful third party run for president anyone's ever had. People still remember him, you know, in living memory. This is only, you know, 20 some odd years after Theodore Roosevelt was president.

And Roosevelt had supported Smith for president multiple times. In 1924, he had given the nominating speech at the democratic convention. That was where Smith got the nickname the Happy Warrior, which is along with east side, west side. That's the other part of the Al Smith brand is being called the Happy Warrior. And the song east side, west side, as we mentioned, it will come up again.

And something that was interesting, which plays into the Roosevelt story a little bit, is that that appearance of that convention, this was the first time, Carol points out, that Roosevelt made a major public appearance after contracting polio and being essentially paralyzed for the most part from the waist down. And it meant a lot to Smith that Roosevelt was the one giving that nomination. It gave him that support. But on the other hand, Roosevelt never fit in socially with the Smith crowd. And Caro kind of describes Roosevelt kind of like, awkwardly calling Robert Moses and being like, hey, if you're gonna go hang out with Al Smith, can I come with you?

Can you take me with you? Which seems so pathetic, and it's always awkward when he does. And Smith likes Roosevelt well enough, but Caro quotes him as saying, franklin just isn't the kind of man you can take into the piss room and talk intimately with, which is a real old school politics way of thinking about your allies. And this is one of those things we talked about last time, and we'll talk about a lot this time. Is this the politics of personality?

Roman Mars

And even though Al Smith and Robert Moses might seem like sort of odd political bedfellows, they just like each other, you know? And it's real simple. And Roosevelt doesn't really get along with these good time guys. I feel like I am firmly in the Franklin Roosevelt camp, that I'm not also the type of man that you can take into the piss room and talk intimately with.

And so I feel for Roosevelt at this point. Yeah, it's hard to see it and not, yeah, and not feel for the person who's kept on the outside. Even though Roosevelt is much wealthier than either of these two guys and has had a, in some ways, easier life until that moment that he gets polio and then his life becomes incredibly difficult. But everyone underestimates Roosevelt. He's spent his life being underestimated.

Elliott Kalin

He's seen as flighty. He got that nickname, the feather duster, when he was at Harvard. His classmates nicknamed him that because he was not considered particularly deep or someone you could rely on to stay interested in something. And in politics, he's Tina's kind of like this prissy snob who is entitled but doesn't have the achievements to back that up. And what Carol points out is they're not taking into account the personal strength it took to get back into the political world after being paralyzed.

And there's a thread that runs through the Roosevelt story throughout his life of him not letting people know just how debilitating his physical handicap is. And it's something that causes people to underestimate him completely because it takes so much willpower for this guy to get to the piss room, so much strength even to stand up and make it to the bathroom, that to get back and become a public figure is astounding. And nobody seems to realize that FDR is laying the groundwork to run for governor himself someday and then to president eventually, except for Belmaskwitz. She sees. She's about to say FDR.

You know what? I said it. Okay, I'll just put a quarter in the jar. Hold on. She sees FDR as a threat, but everyone tells her that she's wrong.

Belle, your instincts are off. You don't know what you're talking about. But Bell Moskowitz is never wrong. She sees FDR as FDR, like, from the get go. Yes.

Yeah. She knows that Roosevelt sees himself as FDR too. Sees himself as this figure just dropping coins in left and right. Okay, 1924. So we've jumped back a little bit to 1924 when Al Smith appoints Moses president of the Long Island State Park Commission.

He also appoints Roosevelt to chairman of the taconic State park commission upstate. They are immediately at each other's throats. And Moses tells Cairo that he thinks this is because he kept stopping Roosevelt from giving a patronage job to this advisor, Louie Howe, who everybody thought was horrible, but who was very loyal to Roosevelt and who gave up a lucrative job to help Roosevelt after Roosevelt was stricken with polio. But Caro thinks it's a different theory. He thinks these are just two arrogant, ambitious men.

They both want power at the same time. They're both big fish in a small pond. And Roosevelt also has his plans for parks and parkways for his native duchess county outside the city upstate. And Moses is always like, yeah, Roosevelt. Yeah, you can build those parks.

That'd be great. You've got a whole park system in mind. Yeah, definitely. You'll definitely get the resources to build that. Until Moses in charge, then he's like, no, this money goes to the Long Island State park system.

Sorry, Dutchess county. Sorry, feather duster. And every year, Roosevelt requests money, and Moses says, no, you can't have it. And Roosevelt gets so mad that he threatens to resign. Very ironic that he's pulling a Moses play, and Al Smith has to personally smooth things over because he wants Roosevelt to nominate him at the 1928 democratic convention when he's gonna run for president again.

Roman Mars

That's right. That convention happens. Roosevelt nominates Smith. Smith wins the nomination. We know that he's not gonna win the presidency due to kind of anti urban and anti catholic sentiment throughout the country.

Elliott Kalin

And he asked Roosevelt to be a successor as governor. How do you think Moses feels about that idea of Roosevelt taking the boss's seat? Moses hates this idea. And this is one of the few times where Moses changes his party affiliation from Republican to Democrat just so he could maybe be considered for that seat if Al Smith vacates it to either become president or loses and therefore is no longer the governor. Yes, and this is an instance where Moze has such an amazing instinct for a certain type of politics, the politics of negotiations and deals and getting things done.

And he has such a poor instinct for the politics of voters and the electorate and getting people to vote for things, because it would be very clear to any kind of party figure that Moses is not someone that you can run as governor and keep that seat, especially in a year when, as the election continues, it's more and more the election of what they call rum, Romanism, and Tammany, where they need a candidate who is the opposite of all those things. And Moses, the man who is Al Smith's right hand man, also is a city guy, is jewish. On top of that, the idea that, like, well, the Klan vote doesn't want to vote for Al Smith for president, but I guess they'll vote for Robert Moses for governor upstate. That's not gonna happen. Not to say everyone in upstate New York is in the Klan.

I'm not making that implication at all. But it was a much bigger force at the time than it is now. And so they need someone who is the opposite of Al Smith in many ways so that they can keep the governorship in a year where it's very clear Al Smith is not gonna win the presidency. But the thing is, Moses has just reorganized the state government. His reorganization is so good that state parties, like even a lightweight like Roosevelt can't screw it up too much.

We've got the Moses system working here. That's right. And, you know, at this point, you know, Roosevelt has had these, you know, long running, long justinian plans to, you know, take both the governorship and maybe eventually the presidency by storm. But he knows that this is probably a republican year, you know, when it comes to, like, the governorship of New York. And he does not want to run, but Al Smith, you know, persuades him to run anyway.

But as Roosevelt's campaigning, Moses is seeing this future where he's going to be working for Franklin Roosevelt, and he hates it. And his private comments about Roosevelt are getting more and more vicious, and these comments are getting back to Roosevelt. And Moses is insulting Eleanor Roosevelt's looks, which is just, like, just a cruel thing to do, just a meaning to do. He's implying that maybe we don't know just how debilitating Roosevelt's polio was. And caro dances around this, but I have to assume that he's implying that Roosevelt is impotent, that he's not a man anymore.

And Roosevelt learns of all this, and he starts saying, if I'm elected governor, I want Moses out. I do not want him in my government. And on election day, as we know, Herbert Hoover trounces Al Smith. Al Smith doesn't even win New York state. That's bonkers.

It's his home state, and he doesn't get it. But Roosevelt makes it in as governor. And Al Smith, there's a couple sad things that happen with Al Smith. So he takes this private job and retires from politics, but he's always like, franklin, if you ever need advice, just call on me. I'm always here.

I'm always at your disposal. Just call on me if you ever want your advice as governor. And Roosevelt's like, I'll do that, Al. And he never does. He never calls on him.

Al Smith is demoralized by this. Nobody is ever sure why. Maybe he has political reasons for it. Maybe he just likes to use people and then discard them when he doesn't need them anymore. Or maybe it's because Al Smith underestimated his intelligence and thought that Roosevelt would be kind of a puppet for him afterwards.

We don't know for sure. Well, I mean, I think the most generous interpretation of this is that Roosevelt wants to be governor, and he's following up the most popular governor in New York state's history, and he wants to run his own administration. Like, yeah, I like. That's the generous. That's the generous positive one.

But the negative one would be that he's got a vendetta. He wants to hurt an old man. But I think you're right that Franklin Roosevelt is like, well, I'm governor now. Like, why would I. Why would I do the things that you want me to do just because you want me to do them?

I think you're right. Caro's so in love with Al Smith that I think any slight on Al Smith, he gets a little. He gets sensitive about, too. He does seem to have great affection for Al Smith and his role, and there's some very sweet scenes that are empathizing with Al Smith in this position. I mean, like, he is not old at this point.

Roman Mars

I mean, he's in his early fifties, I think, right? Yeah. And so for him at this point, to become inactive in this world, that he really found himself, learned politics, basically taught himself to read in law books in Albany, and becomes this Titan. It's a real fall for him. I just can also see the point of view of Roosevelt going, like, I have to run things my way.

I mean, I am the governor, and I appreciate it, but I don't need any advice right now. And so I kind of get it. I get it, too. And Smith says to Roosevelt, you can fire anyone in the administration, but you got to keep misses Moskowitz and Robert Moses. And Roosevelt is like, no, I don't want to keep them.

Elliott Kalin

I don't want to keep them. And I especially don't want to keep Moses. He tells Smith, no, he rubs me the wrong way. Of course, Roosevelt can only remove Moses from the secretary of state office because Moses has done such a good job of writing the law that gives him his parks jobs that those aren't in Roosevelt's control. He's the head of the Long Island park commission.

That position doesn't expire until 1930. He's chairman of the state parks council that's elected by the council itself, which he has control of. It's his people who, along with him, are on that council. And Moses. The rule says he can only be removed for illegality, and nobody even knows what he's doing inside the parks.

It's so opaque that you'd have to launch an investigation. He's so popular that an investigation of him, if it didn't find anything, would be a huge risk. And he's established this independent power for himself. And Carrow makes a mention of a very serious four hour interview with Moses, where at the end of it, Moses finally laughs at how the law made it nearly impossible for Roosevelt to remove him. That was still a chuckle buster years later.

And when Moses learns he's not going to be reappointed as secretary of state. He preemptively announces his resignation to the press to embarrass Roosevelt, and Roosevelt has to put out a public statement thanking Moses for staying on in his park posts that even though he's leaving secretary of state, that position of secretary of state gets demoted considerably from the powerful position that it was when Moses had it. Roosevelt reappoints every one of Smith's officials, except for Moses and Moskowitz, basically, and a couple of others. And at the inauguration, Roosevelt and Smith, they put on this show of friendship, but Moses makes a point of walking out before Roosevelt can give his inaugural address. They are being so petty.

These are the most powerful people in the state. They're being so petty with each other, it is ridiculous. Yeah, I guess I changed my mind. It's probably just a bunch of back and forth nonsense that's making them fight. No, I like your interpretation of it better, that it was generous.

Roosevelt is someone who. He does not come off amazing in this book, but he's someone who I genuinely, except for one or two things in his tenure as presidency, obviously, like the japanese relocation camps or are abominable, but otherwise, I find him to be such a. Such an amazing figure, such a titanic, unbelievable figure, that to see him being this petty throughout the book is really disappointing. But you can also just imagine what level of pain in the ass Robert Moses is. I mean, like, I could totally just, like, I'm not inheriting this guy.

Roman Mars

I have no interest in this. And Belmoskiewicz seems perfectly great in so many respects, but also seems so loyal to Al Smith that, again, you're just like, well, why is she working for me here? Like, she's just working for Al Smith in this role. And so, yeah, I can totally understand that reason. And, like, when you're doing all this stuff and you have all these people and all these responsibilities, having this thorn in your side the whole time, Robert Moses, I could totally see, like, I'm just going to dig this thing out.

I don't care how bad it feels to dig it out. I want it out of my body, definitely. Yeah. To have Moses, this guy who loves Al Smith. It comes up later that he calls Al Smith governor, but he calls Roosevelt Frank.

Elliott Kalin

He never calls him governor. You'd be like, do I have to deal with this guy? Come on, let's bring in some of my people. Some people who call me governor, for crying out loud. That's my title.

But they're stuck with each other for now. So we go to chapter 17, the next one, the mother of accommodation. And it's a great chapter that sort of explains why Robert Moses, through this tumultuous period of not having the support of Al Smith, still both retains and actually grows his power. And it is because, you know, Roosevelt learns, just like Al Smith learned, that having noticeable improvements to people's lives. Nipples.

Nipple. Is a great way to stay governor. Yes, exactly. So Moses, he enters this administration not sure he's going to have the executive support that Smith always gave him. And that gets tested very quickly because it turns out there's this one spot where he's building the northern State Parkway, where there's no space between the barren estates that he wants to run the road.

And the Barons, it seems like they're going to use Roosevelt's background against Moses because they actually hire one of Roosevelt's old Harvard classmates, a guy named Grenville Clark, who, again, sounds like an attorney who went to Harvard at the turn of the century. They hire him to fight Moses. And Clark learns of Moses biggest secret, the thing that literally Moses stopped talking to Caro when Caro brought up years later, which is the $10,000 that Otto Khan gave to Moses road building in order to route the northern state Parkway around his golf course and through a series of family farms, basically, or one in particular. And Clark gives this information to those Moses hating state legislators, Hutchinson and Hewitt, that Moses kept outwitting last episode, like a legislative bugs bunny, like a, like a bureaucratic administrative, you know, Daffy Duck. And they make it clear that any attempt to route the road through this area called the Wheatley Hills, where the barons are, will lead to a public fight.

They will expose Moses, deal with Khan, and they'll do it so that it stretches into 1930, when Roosevelt will be running for reelection as governor. So Roosevelt agrees to this compromise. They're going to do a two mile detour around the area, and the barons will pay a little bit toward the cost of the detour, but more than 90% of that road cost will be covered by the taxpayers. And Caro takes a moment to point out that this compromise and the compromise with auto con meant that commuters from east of the Dix hills using the northern State Parkway to commute in and out of New York, they have to go eleven extra miles each way every workday. That's an unnecessary 22 miles of driving every workday.

That's 5500 unnecessary miles a year. And so by the 1960s, tens of thousands of commuters are wasting tens of millions of hours of their lives on these extra unnecessary miles of road because of these political deals. And each twist in that road is a tribute to the power of the barons who could work behind the scenes to thwart ostensibly public government. It all gets at this idea that Carroll has throughout the book, that each of the things that we live in, in the built world is based on a choice that was made possibly because of power that was undemocratic or anti democratic. But it's not the powerful people who force those choices that have to live with it.

Usually, it's the ordinary folks like. Like you and me, Joe podcaster, right? Roman. That's right. Yeah.

Roman Mars

We have to bear the weight of that. Of that choice. And it is one of those things that, I think one of the reasons why it is so devastating reputationally and why it is a good lever to use to control a little bit of what Robert Moses does. It is so antithetical to his image as a champion of people. Yes.

Elliott Kalin

I mean, it's the old Trump conundrum. Trump can openly do any number of bad things, but it's like, yeah, we kind of expect that from him. Like, you know, he's a guy that we expect that from. But if an upstanding type politician gets found out doing something slightly shady, then it destroys that reputation that they have. It's more damaging because of the context of the reputation that it's happening in.

So for Robert Moses, it's almost like if people already knew that he was such a deal maker and deal breaker, if he was such a power broker and power smoker, that they would in a midnight poker. Yeah, exactly. Oh, if ever there's a guy who is not a midnight toker, I imagine it's Robert Moses. He's too busy tromping the hills of Long island, looking for routes for roads and looking for places to build beaches. But it's because, like you're saying.

Exactly, because he has this reputation as this virtuous kind of man of the people, that it would be especially damaging to be seen making deals with the barons who are ostensibly his enemies. And part of this compromise is also that Moses promises he's never gonna build parks along that north Shore section that's owned by the barons. And as of the writing of the book in 1974, this was still pretty much the case. Since then, it's not the case. And a lot of the estates up there are now parks that are now open to the public, and they're very beautiful to go to.

It makes you mad that it was just privately owned for such a long time. And Caro suggests that maybe Al Smith wouldn't have fallen into this trap, but that Roosevelt suffers a little bit in Albany because he's not seen as trustworthy. And Moses comes to not see Roosevelt as trustworthy. People expect Roosevelt to lie to them, and it comes to the point where Moses will be like, will you sign this law that I pushed through? And Roosevelt's like, I'll sign it.

And then he doesn't do it. So Moses has to literally hang out in Roosevelt's office and physically refuse to leave until Roosevelt signs those laws. Here's the place where I start to feel like Chara was misleading us a little bit, because, as you mentioned, despite this big buildup about Roosevelt being his enemy, Moses grows in power. During this time, Roosevelt signs most of the bills Moses wants. As we mentioned before, Moses doesn't even call Roosevelt by his title, just calls him Frank, which I have to imagine most people, at least, they call him by his first name, called him Franklin, at least.

The only worst thing would be if he called him, like, frankie, which would be very funny. And he does things without telling Roosevelt. He won't take Roosevelt's patronage suggestions, which is big, because Moses now controls 1500 jobs, at least. And Roosevelt has this dream of turning this old army base in the Bronx into a merchant marine academy, which is the kind of stuff he loved. And Moses blocks that, really for no reason, just to annoy him, literally.

Until Roosevelt is leaving to become president on the third to last day of his governorship, he knows he's been elected president. He quietly is like, and I assigned this law giving the space over to become a merchant marine academy and doesn't tell anybody. And it just seems like Moses is needling him for no reason. But he's also able to do this because he understands the mechanics of the state government better than anybody else. He literally wrote the law.

And later on in the book, you'll have young people will say to Moses, oh, well, the law says this thing. And he'll go, yeah, I know. I wrote that law like it came out of his head. And that means that he is someone who occasionally, Roosevelt can rely on. So in 1929, Roosevelt has his first budget.

It's the first state budget drawn up under the Moses budget system. And the legislature is like, we're attaching a writer to this. That gives us equal power to the governor in allocating government spending. And Roosevelt's like, what do I do about this? And Moses says, just let the courts veto the bill.

We'll find other ways to pay for the government. There's always money to be found hidden in places of the government, and the courts will say it's unconstitutional. And that's exactly what happens. Moses is like this kind of like frenemy consliere that he can rely on to understand things, even though I'm sure Roosevelt was mad, even though it helped him that he was mad that Moses was right. I guarantee it.

Roman Mars

Yeah. And he really did reform the government to such an extent that he does know the ins and outs of this. And Cairo presents him as being extremely sanguine when everything goes to court, because he feels like his writing of these laws is so ironclad that no one would rule against him. And, you know, he's right. It's like you're playing a board game against the Parker brothers, and they're like, yeah, we think we're gonna win this one.

But the real thing, the real reason why Moses accumulates power is because he gets things done, you know? And, you know, this is a time period in which all these things that Moses had been working for are opening up, and he's getting more and more attention. He's getting more and more acclaim, and he's just getting more and more power. Yes, Roman, like you mentioned earlier, he is making nipples happen. He is noticeably improving people's lives in ways that are now finally coming to fruition.

Elliott Kalin

And so, like, for instance, the wanta causeway opens. Now New Yorkers can drive all the way to Jones beach. On the first day, 25,000 cars drive across it. In the first month, 325,000 people are going to Jones Beach State park. And now that it's accessible to people from the outlying areas, they can see just how amazing it is.

And reporters from New York can come and see how beautiful it looks and all the little design details and things that make it like a little swimming fantasy land and have little. Like Moses, he's always big on little touches that are kind of whimsical and a lot of, like, it's stuff like ship themed water fountains and, you know, and everyone who works there is wearing, like, kind of sailor type outfits. That's right. It sounds a little cheesy to me, but I have to imagine 1929, this kind of, like, whimsical recreation land for ordinary people was mind blowing. Totally this.

And later on, we talk about the Central park zoo. It's like little. He's, like, making little, like, proto disneylands that just feel like you're walking in a different world. I mean, you have to imagine that most of these people's lives were bereft of delight. You know, that's such a sad phrase.

Yeah, I think you're right. And when you see all this stuff and all this attention and all these cute touches and, like, you know, Caro liberally uses the word gay to talk about, you know, happy and light and free. And it is this word that's like, you know, obviously has changed so much over time and how we use it, but it's perfect for describing this feeling that is about happiness and lightness and goodness and whimsy that must have just felt like Dorothy walking into Oz for the first time. That's such a fantastic parallel for it. These people coming from the gray world of the city, these are middle or lower class people, mostly middle class people, because they have cars, but maybe they brought their lower class friends with them in the backseat of the car.

They're able to enter a world where they can forget about the rest of their lives for a day and just enjoy it. And that's such a new experience to people. I have to imagine. And the other thing that everyone is amazed about with Jones beach, the same as all adults are amazed about with the Disney parks, is how clean it is. It's amazingly clean.

And you're coming from a city that still has, like, horse dung all over the streets in lots of places. And they make a point that the attendants who wear sailor suits, if there's a piece of litter, they don't have sticks to pick it up with. They have to stoop down and pick it up with their hands. So everyone sees that someone dropped a piece of litter. And it is especially embarrassing for the litter bug because they know that someone had to put effort into cleaning it up.

And Carol says that if a bag of garbage is found on the side of a Moses parkway, the troopers who work the parkway will open up the bag and try to identify the owner from the contents, and they'll go to their home and issue them a summons, and they'll bring newspaper reporters with them so that there'll be a story in the paper. Like, litterbug caught, you know. You know, this litterbug from Manhattan was caught because they analyzed his trash. This is. I'm 100% on most society about this.

Roman Mars

Like, I. This is the one crime I believe, like, firmly in the decriminalization of most things, but littering, I want to have stiffer penalties and fines and shame. Yeah, you're a hardcore litterbug death penalty advocate. Yeah, exactly. And as a result, you know, by 1932, the attendance is in the millions of people.

Elliott Kalin

The facilities have to be expanded. It's a huge success. And that all reflects on who's in charge at the time. The governor. It reflects on Moses, but also on Governor Roosevelt.

And Moses projects have this kind of snowball effect, where once people see how successful and how beloved one is, they want to build more. So he opens this two mile long ocean Parkway in 1930, and it goes from Jones beach in the direction of Fire island. And he's like, actually, I want to build 98 more miles of parkway all the way from Rockaway to Montauk Point. And these local communities that used to stand in his way, they're like, yeah, yeah, this is gonna bring money to us. And he says to the legislature, I've got millions of dollars worth of land that's just been given to the state so I can build this road.

Are you gonna let it go to waste? He's still. He's using his. His whip sawing and his. What's the other one?

Steak driving methods. And in 1931, the legislature, they appropriate the money to extend the route, and it doesn't make it all the way through Fire island, according to Caro, because there's two old lady sisters who live there who will not sell their land. They just refuse to. And Moses is like, I'll deal with them later. I'll get around to that.

And luckily for everybody, he never does. So I guess we have those two old ladies to thank for fire islands not having a highway running straight through it for it still being a place where you can go, and it feels like you're not in the New York area anymore. And it's funny that Caro told us in his interview, he was talking to Moses, and Moses was pointing out to Fire island being like, shouldn't there be a parkway out there? Like, shouldn't there, like, he was still was like, I'm insured in his head. He's like those two old bitties, you know, they stopped me from my dream.

And everyone loves Moses work. He takes a big advantage, that his projects are an enormous part of the budget. There's 70%, more than 70% of the state's metropolitan construction budget. And when Roosevelt wants to cut the budget, because when he runs for president, he doesn't want to be seen as a spendthrift, Moses, he threatens to resign. It becomes his go to move, and this time it works.

But Roman, tell us again, it didn't work when he was a Yale swimmer. Why does it work now? Because he's got the power. He's got the power, and therefore, he cannot be allowed to resign. And this is like the first moment where there's, like, this move that he goes over and over again, even to the point where, like, people like LaGuardia kind of laugh at him through the process, you know what I mean?

Roman Mars

And it really works. And it works big. And it really matters here, because, like, half a chapter ago, Roosevelt was ready to fire him. Roosevelt was ready to get him out by any means necessary to endure whatever pain it was to get rid of him. But now he pulls the resignation move, and it totally works.

And he's going to use it for the next 50 years, and it's going. To work every time until the one time it doesn't work, in which case it really doesn't work. We'll get to that much later in the book. And Moses, he knows his playbook now. He's going to ask the legislature for a big amount of money.

Elliott Kalin

He's going to build something. Part of the way. He's going to say, I actually need more money, and they're going to say no. And he's going to say, are you going to let all that go to waste? You're going to tell the voters that you wasted all this money.

And he almost always gets what he wants. And by 1930, the Long island state parks, according to Cairo, they're seeing 3 million visitors a year at a time when the attendance at all national parks combined is 3.4 million. Like these, it's hugely popular. And he always includes Roosevelt in the big opening ceremonies and other politicians that he needs. That way they get the media attention and they get the public credit.

And Moses starts to say to people, you can get an awful lot of good done in the world if you're willing to let someone else take the credit for it, which is very funny, considering he is also getting a massive amount of credit for everything. That's. It's not like he is the man in the shadows that nobody knows about. You know, he's still getting credit. But politicians, they need, if they're especially, they're running for reelection.

They need that record of achievements. And that means very early on in their terms, the projects have to start because they've got to be done in time for election day. They've got to be able to point to it and say, look at that road. Look at that beach. They can't point to a plan.

They can point to a thing. And a governor, unfortunately, can't. I mean, not unfortunately for those projects. A governor can't unfortunately just steamroll over people and break the guardrails of democracy. Democracy's whole point is, it slows action down so that you don't run roughshod over people.

But because Moses is an appointed official, he doesn't need to be reelected. He can throw his weight around, be a jerk to people. He can be mean to voters. It doesn't matter. And everyone, if they get mad, they'll get mad at him and not the governor.

But then when the project is done, the governor can be like, look at this great road I built. Look at this beach I built. This is an amazing thing, because these terms, they might seem interminable to us when we have to endure a politician we despise, but they are very short in terms of getting things done. And Robert Moses, not only does he have all these qualities to get things done, he might be the only person in history that can put a road in inside of two years. You know, like, I mean, it's really stunning how different as a sort of weapon of accomplishment that Robert Moses is compared to most people.

Recently in Los Angeles, we had a problem where a major freeway, there was a fire under it and it fell apart and it was closed for a little bit. And people were thought it was going to be closed forever for a long, long time. And they finished rebuilding it in a relatively short amount of time, within a matter of weeks. And everyone was so amazed. You would have thought a magic trick had taken place in Los Angeles.

People couldn't stop talking about it for a long time. Can you believe they. It's up already. You can drive on it again. Can you believe it?

Because this stuff is so difficult. It's so hard to push it through. And Robert Moses consistently doing it. I mean, if I had built Jones Beach, I would have been like, that's my monument. I did it.

Like, that was a lot of effort. Now I'm going to rest on my laurels a little bit. But he just keeps doing these things. And as a result, he can get away with a lot that other people don't. And Chara talks about how Moses gets away with actually strangling, not to death, but strangling another member of the parks council during a meeting that the, to be fair, the council member refers to Moses by an anti semitic slur.

And Moses gets so mad that he starts strangling him. And when he's pulled off of this guy, he picks up a three foot ashtray stand and hurls it at him. And luckily only misses him because another guy, like, hit his arm to stop it, so it wouldn't hit this guy, but he gets so mad, and the council member goes to Roosevelt and is like, are you gonna do something about this guy who strangled me? And Roosevelt's like, no, I don't think I'm going to. And the council member resigns.

He is so politically important that he can get away with this kind of thing, which to most people would probably lose that job if they strangled a coworker. Let's say that's true. Maybe it's because this is a view of the kind of more negative aspect of Moses that this is when Chara starts to transition into Moses efforts to dissuade black people, especially poor people in general, but black people especially, from using these parks and facilities. And he quotes Francis Perkins, who has known Moses for years and years, saying that Moses saw the public as dirty. And Cara talks about how Moses kept the Long island railroad from going to Jones beach.

And he makes the claim that has become surprisingly controversial in recent years, that Moses was deliberately keeping the overpasses on his parkways too low for buses to pass under. And there's been a lively debate over the past few years about whether this was standard parkway practice or not. One of Moses top lieutenants told Cairo that this was a deliberate move, but it's hard to know the truth about that, although every time I've seen it fact checked, the fact checker is always like, I guess Carrow's technically correct since Moses lieutenant told him this, why Moses did it. But it's become a surprising controversy recently. Yeah, I mean, I think there was some boss service to Jones beach.

Roman Mars

It wasn't widespread. It was from the very beginning. Clearly, it was never meant to expand. It was meant to be very small. And there are lots of other things about how Jones beach was run that comports to this idea of not complete exclusion, but enough discomfort, enough shame, enough just making people feel uncomfortable that he was designing Joan's beach for a certain type of people, and poor people, and especially black people, were not among them.

Elliott Kalin

Yes. They hired a couple black lifeguards and would post them at the farthest reaches of the beach, farthest from the bathhouses, to kind of given it a little subtle pressure that that's the place where black bathers should go. He would keep the water in the Jones beach pool cold, under the impression that black people hate cold water, so they won't go into the pool if it's too cold, which is. I remember reading this book years ago, and it was the first time I had ever come across that stereotype. And I was like, really?

Like, what was he basing that on? Like, I don't. But black civic groups notice this, and they complain to Roosevelt, and he has an investigation. It finds that Moses is discouraging black people from using the parks. And Roosevelt brings up to Moses, and Moses goes, no, I'm not doing that.

And Roosevelt never brings it up again because I think he just. He needed to be seen to go through the motions. But Moses is too valuable to him. It's too valuable to the state in his mind to get him into trouble for this. And even when Moses, he wants to raise the price of parking at the parks to $0.50, which is a lot of money in the thirties, that's a huge amount of money to raise it.

It leads to a backlash, and Roosevelt wants him to lower the price. He threatens to resign. Roosevelt goes, never mind. Then. Roosevelt even vetoes a bill banning fees in state parks because 1932 is coming.

Roosevelt's running for president. He can't afford a public spatial with this incredibly popular guy. And the chapter ends with everyone knows Roosevelt's running for the democratic nomination for president. He's got a very good shot because it's the depression and people want to change. Al Smith, he decides he's going to run against Roosevelt basically out of spite.

And Moses, he takes a leave of absence to help his old boss try to defeat his current boss, which is a real, that's a real jerk of a move to do. And Moses does this knowing Al Smith does not have a chance. There's no way he's going to get this nomination. And Moses, in a show of loyalty and spite of Roosevelt, those things dovetail beautifully here. He kind of stands by Smith through the moment when Smith knows he has lost.

He doesn't abandon him before then, which is a rare moment of maybe, I don't know if it's compassion or comfort from Moses. He really does feel this relationship with Al Smith that will sit with him for the rest of his life. And if it means that he gets to try to unseat this guy, he hates, his current boss, then he'll do that, too. Yeah. It is really interesting to watch how pure his affection for Al Smith is.

Roman Mars

And this comes up, but we'll get there. But one of my favorite sections of the whole book. And despite his general political savvy and political calculations, although, as you mentioned before, he has kind of a blind spot for electoral politics, he has different bureaucratic politics, like superpowers, but electoral politics, he seems to just not be able to sort of crack that code. But he really does want to stand with him, and he sort of stays with him all night with the democratic nomination until he realizes that it is not going to happen. And a bunch of people break for Roosevelt and they secretly leave the convention by a side door.

And he always wants to maintain the dignity of Al Smith. It's very clear. Yes, I think that's a great way to put it, that he always wants Al Smith to be seen the way he sees Al Smith, as this just true heroic figure that is deserving of love, deserving of not just respect, but love. And there's something very beautiful about that, and it's you almost wish you could say to Robert Moses, imagine everybody in these buildings that you're evicting to build your expressway. Was Al Smith like?

Elliott Kalin

Would that change the way you feel about this? And I don't know, maybe it would, but maybe it wouldn't. Al Smith seems to be his one true love, which is very sweet. That's right. And while we're piling on all these horrible things Robert Moses does, except for his devotion to Al Smith, Robert Carrow changes gears again in the next chapter that we will get to after this Walmart plus is the membership that saves you time and money on the stuff you'd expect.

Roman Mars

Plus the stuff you don't like. Gas. Save on gas while you drive the kiddo to soccer practice. Plus visit your in laws. Plus venture into the wilderness.

Plus wherever else you want to go. Plus take some guilt free time on the couch because Walmart plus also saves you time and money with free delivery. Perfect for ordering new remote batteries. Plus more coffee when somebody finishes it without telling you. Plus snacks for your movie night.

Plus save on actual movies with a Paramount plus subscription stream. Top Gun maverick. Plus mean girls. Plus Jack Reacher. Plus so much more.

Because savings is what the whole Walmart plus membership is all about anyways. Members save on gas. Plus free delivery. Plus paramount plus. Plus so much more.

Start a free 30 day trial at www.walmartplus.com. See Walmart plus terms and conditions $35 order minimum. Paramount plus essential plan only separate registration required.

99% Invisible is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. With Squarespace, it's easy to create a beautiful website all on your terms. You don't want to miss Fluid engine, a next generation website design system from Squarespace with reimagined drag and drop technology for desktop or mobile. And with the new asset library, you're able to manage all your files from one central hub and use them across the Squarespace platform.

Get started with one of Squarespace's professional website templates with designs for every category and use case. Then customize. Customize your look. Update the content, add features to fit your unique needs. I made my website romanmars.com, so long ago.

I built it with Squarespace tools. It was so simple. I followed a good template. I customized it a little bit. Add some social media stuff, and people get in touch with me for that website.

It's perfect for my needs. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com invisible to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

So the next chapter is chapter 18, New York City. Before Robert Moses. It's a little bit of a misnomer. There's, like, only a little bit of before Moses, and then there's a lot of after Robert Moses. Yeah, that's very true.

But I think the point here is there is so much bad going on in the world. There's so much bad when it comes to parks and to politics and to graft and to everything, that the environment that Robert Moses steps in and reforms is really in need of reform. And there's a reason why he accumulates this power and goodwill. I think you're exactly right that this chapter is Robert Carrow switching gears so that we can't just be like Robert Moses, boo Boo, rat fink Boo. But instead to show us why there was a need in some ways for someone like him and that allowed him to do these things.

Elliott Kalin

So it's 1932. It's the Great Depression. It's hit the country. New York has hit particularly hard. This chapter is so full of I feel bad that I get such pleasure out of it, this kind of terrifying urban apocalypse.

Like, everything's falling apart. Writing. And there's some of this right here where it says, New York in 1932 was half completed. Skyscrapers work on them long since halted for the lack of funds that glared down in the city from glassless windows. It was housewives scavenging for vegetables under push carts.

It was crowds gathering at garbage dumps in Riverside park and swarming onto them every time a new load was deposited, digging through the piles with sticks or hands in hopes of finding bits of food. New York was the soup kitchens, operated from the back of army trucks in Times Square. It was the men, some of them wearing Chesterfield coats and homburgs, who lined up at the soup kitchens with drooping shoulders and eyes that never looked up from the sidewalk. And he goes on and on about New York at this time is people being evicted. It's people living on the streets.

More than a third of the manufacturing firms in the city have shut down. Nearly a third of the employable people in New York are out of work. There's 1.6 million people on welfare, kids going without proper food. And what makes the problem even worse is that the previous couple of mayors, Red Mike Hyland and our old bal, James. James Walker, Bo.

James Walker, they were so ridiculously corrupt. They were so corrupt. They're just hundreds of thousands of dollars in graft every year. Carol has this detail about how common it was for vice cops to just frame women as prostitutes and tell them that if they aren't paid off, they're going to take them to jail. And this stuff doesn't really become super public.

Everyone knows that these guys are slimy. But the extent of it doesn't become public until this former judge, Samuel Seabury, who we'll see more of later in this episode, he investigates and he brings it all to light. He confronts Mayor Walker in court. He's like, look at all these bribes you took. And Mayor Walker is like, um, I resign.

And he flees to Europe with his mistress. And his replacement is not much better. His replacement, Mayor O'Brien, he's another Tammany man. And at one point, they ask him who his police commissioner is going to be, and he goes, I don't know. They haven't told me yet.

So he's. He is. Carol Princess is like one of two incredibly bumbling New York mayors. And there's a lot of statistics on top of this about New York's population is getting bigger, the budget costs are ballooning. And what that means, especially, is that the city is in debt.

It has had to borrow so much money to pay its bills. And now the interest is coming due, the payments are coming due on that debt, on those loans, and the tax collections are falling. Just as all this money is coming due, they're going to have to pay. And the only way to pay it is to borrow more money. So the banks demand more budget cuts, which means cutting funds for infrastructure, cutting services.

And the Tammany leaders, they won't fire anyone who's politically connected. So in 1931, they fire 11,000 teachers because the teachers have no power. You can just get rid of them. And 1933 is coming. And in that year, hundreds of millions of dollars in loans are going to be coming due, and New York simply cannot pay them.

And at the same time, this corruption also means that the people working in the government are incredibly incompetent. You've got engineers working for the city who don't have high school diplomas. Every time you want to build something, there's a series of payoffs that have to be made, so nothing is getting built. And the physical infrastructure of New York is so old and so crumbling. Carol mentions that from 1918 to 1932, the number of cars in New York City multiplied more than six fold.

And at the same time, they're building no new major roads within the city or not finishing any of them. They haven't built a new route between the boroughs in 25 years. It's traffic jams all the time. The only way to get across the Harlem river from Manhattan to the Bronx is a three lane drawbridge. So traffic gets backed up because so many cars would get across it, and then it might have to stop because a ship has to pass through.

This is bonkers. This is the early. This is the 20th century. You know, this is. It's.

It's. I mean, it's something about it that's kind of quaint. The Queensborough bridge is 25 years old. They don't. Haven't even painted lanes on it yet.

So when you're driving on it, you have to navigate where your car is supposed to go. It's just. It's incredibly bonkers that this. This is so not the image I have of New York City, which is skyscrapers, you know, Broadway, you know, the amazing things about New York, but the. The physical living in it was.

Was falling apart. And I'll give you two examples of how. How unfinished New York was at the time. That, uh, in. In Riverdale, in the Bronx, where my mom spent her 1st 13 years, they had built a hundred foot high marble column.

And in 1909, they're like, we're gonna put a statue of Carroll calls him Hendrik Hudson the whole time, but I always known him as Henry Hudson. We're gonna put a statue of Hendrik Hudson up there, and we're gonna build a Hendrik Hudson bridge. By 19, 32, 23 years later, the column is the only thing there from the original plans. The statue's not even there. It's just an empty column.

Meanwhile, in Brooklyn and Bay Ridge, they tunneled 96 foot deep holes that are gonna be for a narrows tube to link Brooklyn, Staten island. And from 1921 to 1923, the city spends $7 million digging it. And then they just stop and they just leave these huge holes, and eventually they put, like, a fence around it because kids are falling in them or threatening to fall in them. Like, it's. The city's falling apart and like, to make it even more Moses centric, the parks are in bad shape.

They've rented out city parks to private owners in exchange for kickbacks. The parks are staffed by the Tammany job seekers they couldn't put anywhere else. Everything's overgrown. The trees are, except for the trees, which are stumps. Every single park structure in the city needs to be repaired.

Monuments and statues are crumbling in Bryant park, which is now a kind of weed filled vacant lot full of trunks. The statues there, I know there's one of Washington Irving. I can't remember what the other statue was. They're just lost. Nobody knows where they are.

They just lost the statues. And Caro doesn't mention this, but I did some research in 1934. They were eventually found under the Williamsburg bridge. So they did find the statues. They were under a bridge.

Corrupt vendors who paid for their license are selling kids unsafe hot dogs that make them sick. Like, it's just everything's going wrong in the parks, you know? And you can see why the reform movement is particularly centered on parks, because of all this stuff. I mean, these. These are the only places of respite in the entire city, a city that is falling apart.

Roman Mars

And parks just become the symbol of the reform movement. It's like the physical embodiment of everything that they want, and it's all falling apart. And Robert Moses ends up being the answer to it. I mean, one of my favorite parts of this is that Central park, this jewel, this thing, I think, to this day, I think, is one of the most amazing parks in the world in terms of. You talk to New Yorkers, there's this general admiration for the foresight of the people who laid out the city, that they kept that space open for a park when they could have easily just filled it in with buildings, and it would have been worth so much.

Elliott Kalin

Yeah. To have it there, it's so necessary to life. The city. Roman, tell us about Central park in 1932. Well, it's been neglected for decades.

Roman Mars

All the lawns are turned to dirt. The paths are broken. Benches and garbage cans are overturned. And what's amazing to me, most amazing to me of all is the Central park menagerie, which is what the predecessor to the Central Park Zoo has become. So rotted, guards are given rifles to shoot lions in case they break free.

Elliott Kalin

Yeah, they're like, in case of a fire, the lions will probably just break through the cages because they're so weak now. So you have to carry this gun so you can shoot this lion, which is. It's just. That's an extreme situation for a zoo to be in. And even to call it a zoo is not fair because, as carol mentions, it was called a menagerie because people would just leave their pets there.

Like, if you retired with a pet, you just donate it to central rock menagerie. And the whole thing is full of rats. And in the sheep meadow, there's this flock of inbred sheep that's become malformed over the years. And of course, it's depression. So there's a Hooverville there.

And, yeah, this amazingly beautiful park has just fallen apart. And sports facilities are inadequate. There's only two outdoor swimming pools in the entire city, which is amazing. There's not enough baseball diamonds or things like that. And Cara talks about these public restrooms where women who are connected to Tammany would be assigned as the overseers, and they would just turn them into private apartments that they would invite people to and host gatherings in, and you couldn't use them.

They were not available to you. It's really amazing. As Roman, as you were saying, parks have become this very potent, very visible symbol for the city reformers and the activists about what could be done to make life so instantly better for so many of the people in the city who don't have cars and can't drive out of the city and are just stuck there. And especially for children. There's, on the lower east side, there's 500,000 people live there.

There are two small parks on the upper west side between 110th street and 150th street. There's basically no green space. There's just tenements that block out the sun. And it's heartbreaking, I feel like Caro talks about children just standing in spots where the sun happens to be avoiding the buildings, like cracks between buildings that sunlight is going through because they want sunlight so badly. And waiting for hours online just to dig in, like, little plots of dirt that are, like, you have to wait online to dig in dirt.

That's how bad the recreation is for children in the city of that time. It's really. It's abominable. And the ultimate kind of symbol of Tammany's inability to deal with this is the Central park casino, which this is the big infrastructure project that Mayor Walker is really invested in, where there's a nightclub in Central park. He throws out the owner.

He leases it to this guy that Caro says he owes him a favor, I guess because he introduced him to his favorite tailor, and he gives him a sweetheart deal to lease this casino. And Walker's very invested in the building of and the design of it. And he treats it at his private social club where he and other Tammany politicians, they're drinking champagne. Motorcycle cops are escorting chorus girls when Broadway shows finish to the casino so that the politicians can spend time with them. It's really a bad situation for the entire city.

Moses, he's been trying to get the city to follow through on its promise to build new roads since 1926. And six years later, none of those roads are built. The lands that he was hoping to use for roads is filling in with housing developments. They have the plans to build this Triborough bridge, and they didn't even make any plans to build roads that would link the Triborough bridge to the streets in the city. It would just be a bridge with no roads on either side.

That's okay. They don't have the money to build the bridge anyway, so it doesn't matter. Why would they plan for it? This is when Moses starts to step in. Moses named the chairman of an activist organization, the Metropolitan Parks conference.

And he's got all these workers in his state parks office that he can use to start coming up with plans to submit to the city. And he is driving around New York at night, just kind of dreaming about roads and new parks. And I was like, when does he have the time to do this? He's so busy. How does he have time to just drive around New York City?

But it all culminates on February 25, 1930. There's a big black tie event, and he presents this massive plan for parkways and new bridges to connect New York City to the outside world and between boroughs, to make it possible to drive through the city, around the city, out of the city, without getting stuck in local traffic. And he's laying out what's going to become the belt parkway, the Bronx Whitestone Bridge, the Henry Hudson Parkway. These many routes. This chapter I was going to go into more detail.

It's a lot of New York metropolitan area specific traffic talk. It's bridges that, you know, if you. If you drive around New York. But otherwise, the point is you can go from New England to Long island and you won't get trapped in Manhattan traffic jams. That's his big.

His big goal is to make it so that people outside of New York can get to Long island without having to go through Manhattan, and you'd have parks alongside all these parkways. And he says, we can do it, folks. We can do it. We just have to issue a bond of $30 million. Help me fight to make this happen.

And the audiences are like, we love it. Yeah. This is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moses, you're the best.

And the city is like, oh, hold on a second.

Roman Mars

With good cause, because at this point, like, everything has been deteriorating for so long and nothing gets built and nothing gets maintained, it must seem like complete science fiction to them. It's like he's going to. Someone who is out of shape and just watches tv, never gets off their couch, and he's like, next year you're winning a gold medal in the olympics. We're gonna make this happen. Like, that's how New York feels.

Elliott Kalin

And they do pass that bond issue, but most of the money goes unspent until. Until 1933. Roosevelt is now in the White House. He's in the White House. There's a new governor, Herbert Lehman, from the son of the Lehman brothers, who become famous in other ways.

Yeah, he's the Lehman nephew, I guess you call him. Yeah, that's right. And he has so much respect for Moses. He's going to give him even more power. I know.

I know, Roman, you thought there was no more power left to give to Moses, but he gives him this very important post that sounds very boring. He makes him chairman of the state emergency Public Works Commission, which means he's the one person who will determine which construction projects are going to be submitted to the federal government for funding. Now that the government under Roosevelt is doing all this public works funding to try to get out of the depression. And most is like, I have some projects I will submit to the federal government. And he immediately gets funding for a ton of work in the Niagara Falls area, which Caro, throughout the book, will occasionally be like, oh, yeah.

And this enormous dam that Moses builds at Niagara Falls. And he seems to understand that his audience is a New York, roughly centered audience and is not that interested in the Niagara Falls stuff. But this is like the dam that bears his name. Yeah. Yes.

This is the Robert Moses dam. And so it's very important to Robert Moses. And it's almost. I admire Caro so much, I have to. I feel like, I like the honesty of him mentioning it, but almost implicitly being like, but that's not why we're here.

Right, folks? We're not here to hear about dams on Niagara Falls, but also, like, the Lincoln tunnel housing projects. He's starting to get federal funding for those things in New York. Even more important for Moses future, he's finally able to get the legislature to establish the Triborough Bridge Authority which, as a semi private, semi public organization, it can issue its own bonds to be paid back by toll revenue, which makes it immediately eligible for $44.2 million from the Public Works Administration. From the federal government.

And this is the moment, I feel like, when rereading it, where it's really struck me, oh, the federal money is big money. Like, there's no more scrounging from the state. To a certain extent, he still does plenty of that. But now, if he can get the state to get a little invested in something, he can go to the federal government and get an enormous amount of money. Suddenly, he has so much more potential to play with.

And the authority, of course, it's instantly corrupt. So the federal government is like, we're not giving you any more money. This is ridiculous. And Moses is like, Tammany, guys, we could change this city. Like, we could make it so much easier to get around it.

And they're like, yeah, but how much money are we gonna make off of this? And so the city is in bad financial straits. More loans are coming due. Things are really bad. Robert Moses, he sees only one solution.

He's gonna have to be mayor. Okay, now we're onto chapter 19 to power in the city, which I find it to be a little awkward to read out loud. It's a very Marvel comics type story title. Yeah. It's the kind of thing Stan Lee would write where he'd be like, lo, a God cometh to power in the city.

Daredevil discovers. And this is where we focus on the mayor of New York. A lot of this has been sort of bouncing around to the governor, and we're focusing here more on the city and what it would mean to have a mayor. Also on Robert Moses side. Yes.

To not have to deal with the Tammany machine, which would be a first in New York for a long time. And it starts with one of Caro's best chapter opening lines, which is, he has so many great ones. This is in New York City. 1933 was the year of the gugu, which I love. But it's only now that I realize that Gugu is a way of saying good government, like a derogatory way of referring to a good government person, which makes it a little less fun to me.

I thought it was Al Smith calling people babies, but I like that it's the year of the goo goo. The good government movement is back. Judge Samuel Seabury, who we mentioned earlier, he is spearheading it. And because of the depression, the electorate is seen as being more sympathetic to this type of government movement because they need help so badly. You can no longer just be like, yeah, the government's corrupt.

What are you gonna do? Because you can't feed your family? And a mayor election is looming. Public sentiment is against Tammany. It doesn't help that John Patrick O'Brien, the guy they installed after Walker, is a gaffe machine.

And Caro points out two genuine gaffes. He's talking to voters in Harlem and he says, my heart is as black as yours, which is crazy. And he's talking to a synagogue audience, and he tells them how much he admires the scientist Albert Weinstein, which is. He's just. He is.

It's like he's like a cartoon version of a. Of a bad mayor. And not too long before recording this, we talked to some of our listeners in a discord AMA, and we were talking about moments of humor in the book. And I feel like Caro is very good at isolating some of these that are just silly. It's silly for him to go to an audience and say, albert Weinstein.

So the environment is favorable for that most desired of all things by all reformers who hear about it even now, all the time. A fusion candidate. That's right. People from different political parties working together, the political media in the United States loves this. They love the idea of a bipartisan candidate, even though it almost never works.

Almost never. And it's not always a good idea. It's often not a good idea. But so the reformers, who would normally be kind of activist liberals, you could say, and the republican party, they form the city fusion party. They ask Judge Seabury to run for mayor, and he says, no, I don't want to do that.

And so they consider Robert Moses. And Robert Moses is very attractive to them. To the older reformers, who don't know that Robert Moses is a shady individual, they're like, oh, this is our protege. Like, we saw him come up from a young man. He's our son, in a way.

And the younger guard are like, they look up to him. They see him as their idol, and he is considered a public servant and not a politician, which is not a real differentiation. And Carol kind of criticizes this as a naive way of categorizing officials, but to them, it feels very real. He's not a dirty politician. He is a noble public servant.

Moses is like, yeah, I'll take that nomination for sure. But Judge Seabury, the latest in a line of Moses opponents, he does not like him. And Caro takes a moment to talk about Seabury, who is this kind of, like, old fashioned, descended from pilgrims, kind of sternly imposing, patrician idealist. He's elected judge at age 28, and he spends nearly his entire life fighting Tammany hall. And in 1916, when he was 43, one year older than me, which makes me feel very unaccomplished.

He runs for governor, and he almost makes it. But Tammany orchestrates his defeat, even though he's their candidate. He's the democratic candidate. He's their party's candidate. And there's a footnote that I have to mention.

Cause I love it. Ricaro says that one of the reasons that Seabury ran was that Theodore Roosevelt, who at the time has been president of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt convinces him to run, and at the last minute, he pulls his support and supports the Republican. And Stevia goes to Roosevelt's home and calls him a blatherskite. He's so mad that he goes all the way up to Oyster Bay to call him a Blatherskite, which I just love. Do we know what a blatherskite is, other than the greatest?

I mean, it doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound positive. I'm gonna. Let's take a look. I have to look this up right now.

Roman Mars

Okay, so a blatherskite is a person who talks at great length without making much sense. Well, that's a little more mild than I thought it was. Yeah, I thought it was gonna be worse. I thought it was gonna be something that involves farm animals or, you know, like, you know. But it's still not a great thing to be called, especially 1916.

Elliott Kalin

That's powerful stuff. And he wants to run for governor in 1918. The nomination goes to Al Smith, who Seabury does not like. He sees him as the friendly guy who puts a nice face on the Tammany tiger. He makes this corruption presentable, and Seabay returns to private life always believing, according to Moses, who I assume told this to Caro, that if Al Smith had stepped aside, he could have been governor and then someday president.

And this is the lesson from every book about politics I've ever read. Everyone who goes into politics assumes they will be president someday. It's the same way you read James Clevell's Shogun. Every character is like, yeah, yeah. And I do this and this, and I'll become shogun.

And it's like, you're never gonna be shogun. Like, you're four levels down. Everyone who goes into politics is like, yeah, I'll probably be president at some point. Yeah. And this is the one time, or probably one of a handful of times, where Robert Moses association with Al Smith really hurts him, because Seabury really hates Al Smith.

Roman Mars

Robert Moses is, you know, rightfully considered his right hand man. And even though I think on the merits, Seabury wouldn't have huge problems with Robert Moses and what he did and how he gets things done. He just hates Al Smith so much that Robert Moses is unacceptable to him. Yes. And so he will not support Moses.

Elliott Kalin

And his support is crucial for a fusion candidate, even today in politics. Personal endorsements, personal support from specific individuals is so important. And if Seabury won't support Moses, it's impossible. So the party goes after a lot of different potential candidates. They all turn it down for various reasons.

There's one guy, though, who wants the nomination so badly, but he is literally the reformer's last choice. They do not like him. And that is brash, ambitious, ultra liberal Republican, Jewish, Italian Fiorello LaGuardia, the little flower, former congressman, previously failed candidate for mayor. And I just want to mention the way Caro describes him. He says LaGuardia possessed qualifications for making the run.

Beyond the fact that half Jewish and half Italian married first to a Catholic and then to a Lutheran of german descent, himself a mason and an Episcopalian, he was practically a balance ticket all by himself, which I think is such a. It's a fun way to describe him, LaGuardia. He's been anti corruption before Seabury, but he is this fiery guy from the tenements. He's an outsider to the kind of upper class reformers, and he's very open about demagoguing, and he's nakedly ambitious, and that repels them. And on top of that, LaGuardia is a new deal liberal.

Even though he is a republican, he is all about the new deal, whereas the older reformers are less liberal. They are pre new deal liberals. They don't love the fact that the government is now stepping in and doing so much. He's too radical for them. And.

Roman Mars

Yeah, and so because Seabury just hates Moses so much. And even though LaGuardia is the last on the list, he becomes the fusion candidate and then eventually becomes mayor. And Moses is not a fan.

He thinks, even though he's a republican, his liberalism and his sort of whatever commie leanings with the support of the new Deal, he's very suspicious of all that sort of stuff. And the key to this is, I think the key to a lot of different parts of the book is these certain individuals who step into Robert Moses life and alter his course. And so far in Belmontskiewicz and Al Smith, they've seen some potential in him and lifted him up beyond his station, and he's delivered for them. Seabury, even probably more than Roosevelt has, just as an individual, decided, Robert Moses is unacceptable and he just denies him this chance to become mayor. Yes, and Caro says he lays it out.

Elliott Kalin

All the reformers wanted Moses to be mayor. It was the year that a reform candidate was almost certainly going to win. And Seabury said, no, I won't have him as the candidate. So in a very practical sense, you can say, except for this one guy, Robert Moses would have been elected mayor of New York. And it's this clash of individual personalities, and it risks falling into the great man school of history, where history is just all about titanic figures punching each other and shoving each other and stepping on little people.

And little people go, ah, I don't know. I have no control over this. But which is an anti democratic way of looking at things. And Cairo is very much about very pro democracy and wanting to show how democracy functions or misfunctions or dysfunctions. But in this case, it does feel like one of those things that if you're looking at it from Robert Moses point of view, I'm sure he felt I would be mayor, except for this one guy.

This one guy got in my way. Yeah. But here's a question I have for you, Elliot, is do you think that Robert Moses would have been an effective mayor? I mean, we learn about him being an ineffective candidate later on, but, like, would this have been the. It would have been the end of the book, the power broker, to be sure, at this point.

Roman Mars

But would it be, do you think he was more powerful not being mayor than if he would have become mayor? Not knowing everything in the world about politics? I think, yes, for exactly the reasons that Caro was saying earlier, which is that when you're an elected official, you have to at least show that you're willing to bow to the will of the electorate, and you have to work with different people to compromise, because your power, if you're an appointed official, like Moses, comes from the money or the jobs that you control. Your power as an elected official comes partly from that, but in a greater sense, from the votes that you get, because there's a political reality to. You need votes to win elections to get elected office.

Elliott Kalin

And Moses is so bad, as we'll see later in the book, at being a candidate. I think he would have an incredibly effective first term as mayor and then immediately lose reelection because he will have made so many people angry. And I also think he would have been so busy with the boring stuff of administration, the public stuff, that he doesn't like that he wouldn't have gotten as much done. You know, you don't have as much time to just tromp around Long island or drive around the city planning parks. When you're the mayor, you gotta go do things.

Roman Mars

Yeah, I think that's right. I think he does his best job not being beholden to the public directly and sort of only inviting them in as a support mechanism through fawning coverage in the press and things like that. But if he was really, really beholden to the electorate in terms of votes, this huge source of his power would erode very, very quickly, and then everything else would kind of fall apart. But he is really important to those elected officials who can do the other part, can do the glad handing, can, like, at least pay lip service to the public and the public needs. And he's just a really good arrow in the quiver of those people.

And LaGuardia knows this, and he wants him and his administration badly. Yes. LaGuardia is like the anti Roosevelt in this way, where Roosevelt is like, whatever I can do to remove this guy would be great. Whereas LaGuardia is like, how can I get more of you? How can I have more of you working for me all the time?

Elliott Kalin

And he's got a lot of good reasons. He wants to make the city physically functioning and beautiful again. He admires people who build things, and he's promised to run the government using experts, not partisan hacks. And on top of that, LaGuardia wants to keep Al Smith happy, because there's always the chance in the back of everybody's mind that Al Smith could run for mayor, in which case he would probably win almost instantly. And LaGuardia knows this city has no money, but we have to build things.

The only money we can get is federal money. And there's one man who knows how to get federal money, and that's Robert Moses. Yeah. And for this to become part of the administration, he demands complete control over these, you know, previously separate borough park departments, and he wants parkway development, and he wants to control the Triborough Bridge authority, and he wants to be able to keep his state jobs, which is the source of his power. And the problem is, is that you're legally not allowed to hold state jobs and state jobs at the same time.

Roman Mars

And so he begins to engineer a method in which he can do both. Moses, the lawbringer enters into the story once again, and he says, hey, look, I'll take care of it. Let me write the law that's going to make all this legal. And he buries in section 607 of the bill. It says, an unsalaried state officer is not ineligible for an unsalaried city post.

Elliott Kalin

And so all he has to say, which then still backs up the idea that he is a public servant, not a politician, not corrupt, is. Look, I'm not getting paid for any of this, so I can hold all these jobs, because it's not like I'm making money off of them and everyone out. The people in the legislature are iffy about this, but the press supports Moses. The reformers, who would normally be against someone holding all this power, they support him because they trust him. The Long island barons who know that they can do business with him, they support him.

The mayor and the governor, they both want him in these. In these positions. So the bill passes and Moses is sworn in. And as we'll see in the next chapter, he immediately gets rid of everybody that is not one of his people in the parks department. And at this point, it's February 1934.

Moses is now head of the Long Island State Park Commission, the New York State Council of Parks, the Jones Beach State Park Authority, the Beth Page State Park Authority, the New York City Park Department, the Triborough Bridge Authority, the marine parkway Authority, which he institutes right afterwards. Every group controlling parks and major roads in the New York metropolitan area, he has pretty much personal control of. He is 45 years old, and he's got this. And he's come a long way from the guy who was about to turn 30, who figured that his career in public life was over, and he gets to work right away. The work that the new Deal has been doing to refurbish the parks has been generally crappy, to use a technical term.

And he has his engineers go out, he goes do an inventory of New York City parks. There's no complete record anywhere of how much park space New York City even has or what conditions it's in. And they put together this 1ft thick notebook with plans for 1800 renovations that's going to employ 80,000 people. And there's this constant stream of staff members sending them to parks, going with them, dictating his plans as they walk around, sending them to the main office in Babylon, that he still has to get it turned into plans. And he's persuading all these experienced landscape architects to work for him.

And his ideas are big, and they're expensive. And his workers were like, that's gonna cost a lot of money. And he's like, let me worry about that. Don't you worry about that. But while you're working on this, make sure the parks are fun.

Parks are for fun. Parks are for fun. And you know, Robert Moses is there to work. And the next chapter we learn about all the things he can do in a very short amount of time. That chapter is called one year, and that is after this break.

Roman Mars

This podcast is supported by FedEx. Dear small and medium businesses, no one wants happy customers more than you do. So you need a business partner just like you like FedEx, who understands your passion for serving your customers because they have the same commitment towards you. That's why FedEx offers you picture proof of delivery, packageless and paperless returns, as well as weekend home delivery to 98% of the US on Saturday and 50% on Sunday. See the FedEx Service Guide for delivery information.

What's more, FedEx Ground is faster to more locations than UPS ground. Trust FedEx for timely deliveries. See what FedEx can do for your business. Absolutely, positively FedEx so my wife and I wanted to take a couple of kids to see Taylor Swift in concert. We signed in with pre sale fan codes and logged in on separate devices, each going after a different venue.

And then we got bounced out of different venues and then she managed to get tickets in Minneapolis. So when you want the best you have to act quickly or someone else will get it instead. Its like if youre hiring for your business, you want to find the most talented people for your open roles before the competition scoops them up. So whats the best way to do that? Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter finds qualified candidates fast and right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com.

99 Ziprecruiters powerful matching technology takes center stage to identify top talent for your roles. Immediately after you post your job recruiter smart technology start showing you qualified people for it. Amp up your hiring performance with Ziprecruiter and find the best fast. See why four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try Ziprecruiter for free.

Ziprecruiter.com 99 again, that's ziprecruiter.com 99. Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire.

Elliott Kalin

So. This is chapter 21 year. It sort of starts at the moment that Governor Lehman signs a legislation allowing Moses to be the citywide parks commissioner. And in one of these great moments of Robert Moses being Robert Moses, he gets sworn in, he steps outside, and he tells everyone who works who used to work for that department, you're all fired. Up until that point, each borough had its own parks commissioner who had their own staff.

And he literally. It's almost as if he swears in and then turns around and is like, they're all gone, by the way. Like he just fires them instantly takes his own people to the Fifth Avenue arsenal. That's gonna be their headquarters building, their first job. They're gonna make life so unpleasant for all the civil servants who got patronage jobs that they're gonna quit.

So he's like, you. You live in the Bronx. Well, you work in southern Brooklyn now. You live in Brooklyn. You work in Harlem now.

Just make their commutes as bad as possible. He gives them jobs that they hate. And there's this old lady who has a do nothing job that is kind of like a patronage version of a pension, and they force her to work through the night until at 02:00 a.m. She's like, I'm retiring. That's it.

I don't want to work here anymore. So they're just. They're ruthless with it. Yeah, yeah. And he also recognizes that there's a lot of these plum drops where people do nothing, but there's a lot of underpaid positions in this part of the government.

Roman Mars

And he, you know, he wants to make parks fun above all. He wants to make roads that are good. He wants to have good plans for these things. And, you know, the architects and, you know, you know, engineers of this time, you know, are. A lot of them are out of work.

He wants to attract the best of them. But the jobs, the salaries are set so low that. And they're set so low because of some sort of, like, different federal guidelines. And things like, yeah, the civil works administration is like, we can't spend too much money on this. So everyone, no one can be paid more than this amount.

And he's just like, screw all that. I need to get the best people to do this. And so he begins finagling, like, you know, his own sort of, like, system of how to pay people so he can get the best and. And get these people that instead of having, you know, a foot deep of things that have been, you know, undone and neglected and done poorly, he wants to start working through this. And so he's just trying to solve it in every way possible.

Elliott Kalin

Yeah, and he has this kind of cattle call for architects. He wants to hire 600 architects. And this is another occupation that's been hit. Like you said, if the depression is going on, people are not building things. And so if you're an architect or an engineer, you're out of work, you can't make any money.

And this is a time when there's no unemployment right now. There's no unemployment insurance. These are all things that are being introduced during this time. And so people from all over, they flock to this kind of cattle call. And in one day in January, people are there from dawn until the early evening interviewing for jobs.

If you meet most qualifications, you're put to work that day, and they send you to the basement and they say, that's your desk next to it. Work on this plan. Don't leave. Sleep here until it's done. We need those blueprints ready.

And he's also unhappy with the workers that have been doing this refurbishing job in the parks. So he says to contractors who he knows, send me your toughest ramrods. These are the people whose job is just to bully people into working harder, I guess. I guess they're supervisors. He goes, send me your toughest ramrods.

I'm going to have them backed up by police officers. We're going to force everybody to work harder. And they're working through the winter. And this is winter in New York. Now, roman, you're a northern California guy.

The winters there are pretty mild, right? Very mild. Yeah. Yeah. I live in southern California now.

The winter's here. It just means rain sometimes. But this is New York. Winter is a real thing there. And the winter of 1934, when this is all happening, is severe.

The city gets 52 inches of snow. Caro says the mean temperature for February is 11.5 degrees. And Moses has people working in eight hour shifts, three shifts a day, through the night in the cold, to get these projects done. On February 22, it snows 18 inches. They keep working through it, and they're working so hard that they're actually working ahead of plans.

And the architects have to keep changing their blueprints to accommodate work that's being done, things that are being dug, pipes that are being laid, because it's happening so fast. And one of the big projects, which we'll spend more time on a little bit later in the chapter, is a new central park zoo to replace this menagerie full of lions that you have to shoot in case they escape. And the architects finish the plans for the zoo in 16 days because they're working so, just so many hours, and they're working so hard on it. It's amazing. The first culmination of this Saturday, may 1, 1934.

For anyone who has lived in New York, you know that when spring hits in New York City, it is like the world has turned over. Everything feels so different. Everyone comes out kind of like their eyes blinking because they can't. The sun is so bright. You know, they're all wearing coats, and they just shed them.

People are just shedding clothes in the street because they're not used to the heat that's coming up. And New Yorkers emerge from the winter doldrums to find that out of this 1800 park renovation projects, 1700 have been completed. And there's a, hold on. We're already going long, but I'm gonna just say a little bit of this description here. It says, just to give the scale of it, every structure in every park in the city had been repainted.

Every tennis court had been resurfaced. Every lawn had been reseated. Eight antiquated golf courses had been reshaped. 11 miles of bridal paths rebuilt. 38 miles of walks repaved.

145 comfort stations renovated. 284 statues refurbished. 678 drinking fountains repaired. 7000 waste paper baskets replaced. 22,500 benches re slatted.

7000 dead trees removed. 11,000 new ones planted in their place, and 62,000 others pruned. 86 miles of fencing, most of it unnecessary, torn down. And 19 miles of new fencing installed in its place. Necessary fencing, I suppose, yeah, the unnecessary fencing, I have to assume around things that are, like, damaged that people can't use anymore.

And the parks look better than they have in at least a generation. And for the first time in years, the USS main memorial on Columbus Circle, which is still there. I used to walk by it all the time when I worked in that area, is for the first time that anyone can remember. It's clean and has all its pieces. Part of that statue is a little boy, and the arms of that boy had been missing for so long.

And for movie fans, this is where, in the movie, taxi driver Robert and Giro's character, Travis Bickle, is about to assassinate a presidential candidate and then runs off when he gets noticed. And so you have to imagine that scene loses some of its power. Maybe it gains some. I don't know. If the statue behind Charles Palatine, the candidate is just wrecked, is just in bad shape, you know?

Roman Mars

That's right. And this is happening all over the city. Parks all over the city are getting refurbished. They're getting to a state where people can really enjoy them again. And this is again, why that whole last chapter spent so much time on.

This is to show you how far the city had come and how far it had come because of Robert Moses. Caro is presenting a real Moses before and after on this city. This city is. There's a real rebirth in the park's facilities, and there will be again with the roads later on. But I wanted to highlight two things.

Elliott Kalin

One of the things they did is they rebuilt the prospect Park Zoo in Brooklyn, which I'm very thankful for, because I went to that zoo many times. I took my children there probably 100 times. It's a great little zoo. And reading this, I was like, oh, yeah. Like, Robert Moses didn't just cause problems in my life around mass transit.

He also did things that were still positive in my life. Years later. Bryant park, which is a beautiful, necessary park, was garbage. And then they refurbished it. They restore Central park.

They removed the shantytown. They evict the deformed sheep. They kill 230,000 rats. And they build new equipment and facilities. And they build the restaurant tavern on the green, where 40 some odd years later, my father proposed to my mother before they got married, leading to me.

So Robert Rose is very responsible for me at this point for my existence. And the city doesn't have money to buy new land for parks. Even the land is very cheap right now during the depression. So Moses sends one of his men, a man named Bill Latham. He goes inventory every piece of publicly owned land in the city.

Any city department that owns a piece of land, go find out about it. Look at it personally, see if it's being used. And they find just a ton of unused or abandoned land all over the city. And Moe's able to convince LaGuardia to give the parks department almost all of that land. And he starts plans right away for 69 parks and playgrounds in slum areas.

And they redevelop this whole multi block downtown plot that is now Sara Delano Roosevelt park, which I mentioned just because, as an NYU student downtown. Like, if I was going a little bit further downtown, I walked through that park all the time. Like, I. You can walk through the city and still see so many footprints of Robert Moses all over the place. And he's so knowledgeable about the law and about public funding mechanisms that even when it seems like there's no money, he's always finding money.

He's like, oh, yeah, there's all this land that the state owns in the city that they forgot about. Give it to us. He's like, wasn't there a memorial fund for World War one? Memorial that never got built? Well, we'll build war memorial playgrounds.

We'll use that money. He's like, didn't Arnold Rothstein, the mobster, when he died? Didn't he have a lot of unpaid back taxes? But he owns some land, and so he goes to his estate, to Arnold Rothstein's estate, and he's like, well, in exchange for this land, we'll forgive the back taxes. He's constantly wheedling and finding ways to get what he wants.

He goes to the catholic church and the gas company, all these rich philanthropists, and he's like, hey, don't you want to give us some land for some parks and playgrounds? Wouldn't that be wonderful? And the press is orgasmic about all of this. They just love him. He's in the New York Times nearly once a day for all of 1934, which is certainly more times than Albert Einstein, to use Cairo's earlier metric for how many times Moses in the paper.

Although actually, in this chapter, I think he mentions that he's in the paper more often than J. Edgar Hoover. That's the metric he uses for this chapter. Yeah. Yeah, it is really remarkable.

Roman Mars

And again, this is like one of these things where you just, like, get through this and you think, you know, if I was a person around at that time, I would be just like. I would have a, like Robert Moses foam finger. I mean, I would just be all about all of this. And it is really stunning. And I love these ways that he gets around things like using the war memorial fund to and then building the war memorial playgrounds.

And just, he just puts a plaque that just says, you know, war. Remember it in honor of those we lost. We did it great bringing the playground equipment. But it's something that I'd be curious to talk to a historian of parks, I guess, about whether that started the idea of public parks having war memorials embedded in them, because there's certainly a lot of them now. You know, I was just at a park with my kids where there was this memorial to the soldiers who came from the San Marino area near Los Angeles that lost their lives in world War two in Korea.

Elliott Kalin

And there's a statue of a soldier kneeling bareheaded in remembrance, and my son could not stop climbing on it. And I was like, please don't climb on that. It's like, let's respect their memory. But there's so much of that now, and I wonder if it starts here. But this all.

So this part of the chapter culminates in this beautiful section of the book, this five page section all about the new Central Park Zoo. Those plans were put together so fast on December 3, 1934, my birthday. Not that year. I was born 47 years later, but the end of the year. Moses opens this new Central Park Zoo is a way to personally honor Al Smith.

Al Smith is so depressed that Roosevelt won't consider him for a federal job. And he spends a lot of time at the Central park menagerie. As we know, when he was governor, he had his executive mansion, menagerie. He loves animals. And he's like, as a special favor to the old man, won't you improve the Central park menagerie?

And Moses, because he loves Smith, he makes the zoo a top priority and he's diverting people from other projects to it. And he turns it into another one of these kind of like not quite early Disneyland kind of fantasy fairy worlds. And he is such a master at public ceremonies, at public kind of like presentations. And he has this ceremony. And Caro does such a great job describing, there's 1200 people there.

And a team of white ponies pulls a miniature coach up. And a little girl gets out holding a big gold key. And LaGuardia uses that key to unlock a door in the middle of an oversized picture book. And when he opens it, he's like, now the picture book zoo is open. It's officially open.

And they surprise Smith. They give him a badge naming him honorary night superintendent of the Central Park Zoo. And a horse drawn wagon full of boys from the fourth ward, his neighborhood, singing east side, west side shows up. And they present Smith with a Christmas turkey, which is this, like, strangely dickensian choice. I mean, Christmas is coming up.

They're like, yeah, we love you. Here's a turkey. And Moses is not there because he was working so hard that he collapsed from influenza. He was working through his sickness and he just literally couldn't stand up anymore. So he misses all this.

But later that week, he gives Smith a real key, this master key that unlocks the zoo and all the animal houses. And he goes as knight superintendent. You can go in whenever you want. And Al Smith will spend so many nights, years, I guess, just walking from his apartment to the zoo, unlocking it at night and just going in and, like, petting the animals at night. If there's a sick animal, he'll go and talk to it for a while.

And he likes to bring guests. And he'll go up to the tiger cage and he'll go LaGuardia to make the tiger roar back. Because the idea that the Tammany tiger is mad at what LaGuardia is doing to the city, and it's just. It's so. There's something so adorable about all of this.

It's so delightful. Just this act of love for Al Smith in making this zoo beautiful and giving him a special key to it. I love it so much, it just cracks me up. And it's like one of those things of all these sort of different indignities that probably he wouldn't have suffered if he didn't have the ego he had. They weren't true indignities.

Roman Mars

They're just like, life moves on and it's okay type of thing. But, like, the fact that he gets this in his later life and it means so much to him and it is so innocuous and cute, you know what I mean, is just. Is just the greatest. I mean, it's. It's so funny that.

That, you know, this thing means more to him than his $50,000 a year empire state job that he does not give a fuck about, you know? Yeah. And the fact that he has this for the rest of his days absolutely cracks me up. It's so. I feel every adult has a child inside of them, which is what I guess the Disney brand is built on.

Elliott Kalin

And if you're a pregnant woman, even more literally so. But that's not what I'm talking about here. But it seems like certain powerful people and politicians, that child lives even closer to the surface. You know, I'm always surprised when I read about presidents and I'll just hear about the childish things that they loved or that meant a lot to them. And there's something in Al Smith that he just is.

He just loves the zoo, and he just wants to be around these animals, and it means so much to him. It's just. It's very sweet. And once again, Moses has done all these amazing design touches that make the zoo a fun place to be. And people go there in droves.

And Carol says, he says the purpose of a park, Moses had been telling his designers for years, wasn't to overawe or impress. It was to encourage the having of a good time. Like we were saying earlier, parks are for fun. Like, this is. This is Moses philosophy.

In good and bad ways. In good ways, because parks should be fun. In bad ways because he's like, why would we want a natural grove of trees that have stood here since the to beginning of time when we could have a baseball field. You know, it's bad for conservation, but it's good for recreation. But we can't spend too much time on the Central park zoo, as much as I would love to stay there, because on page 386, we get a momentous sentence.

And the Triborough bridge was finally being built. That's right, the Triborough Bridge. This is the biggest project that Moses has taken on yet, and let's just get. Let's. How big is it?

Well, let's find out by looking at the thing here. Da da da da. Oh. Its approach ramps would be so huge. This is Caro, not me.

Its approach ramps would be so huge that houses not only single family homes with sizable apartment buildings would have to be demolished by the hundreds to give them footing its anchorages, the masses of concrete in which its cables would be embedded would be as big as any pyramid built by an egyptian pharaoh. Its roadways wider than the widest roadways built by the Caesars of Rome to construct those anchorages and to pave those roadways, just the roadways of the bridge proper itself, not the approach roads, would require enough concrete to pave a four lane highway from New York to Philadelphia, enough to reopen depression shuttered cement factories from Maine to Mississippi. To make the girders on which that concrete would be laid, depression banked furnaces would have to be fired up at no fewer than 50 separate Pennsylvania steel mills to provide enough lumber for the forms into which that concrete would be poured. An entire forest would have to crash on the Pacific coast, on the opposite side of the american continent. It's just like, this is a massive project.

It's so huge. It's so like. It's the pyramids, it's the roman roads. It's enormous. And it's really four bridges which are gonna link three boroughs and two islands.

There's the Harlem river span that connects Manhattan and Randall's island. The Bronx kills span connecting Randall's island to the Bronx. The Hellgate span between Ward's island, Ward's island and Randall's island. They're basically the same place. I think they filled them in and made it one big thing.

Connecting Wards island and Queens and the causeway that connects Randalls island and Ward's island itself. And this will include the largest vertical lift bridge in the world and one of the largest suspension bridges in the world at that time. And on Randalls island, there's going to be this cloverleaf exchange where 22 lanes of traffic have to wind around each other, never crossing at the same level. They have to go above and beyond, forcing drivers to stop at one, but never more than one toll booth along the way. And Carol calls it the largest traffic machine ever built.

It's just this astonishingly sized bridge. It's just huge. Yeah. And if you are not from the area, which I am not. And so I'm not sort of intimately familiar with how all these things connect.

Roman Mars

This section here is like a little jarring. You're like, it does this and this and these things, enjoys this and stuff. And you're just know. I think the big lessons are, is that it is a huge project. It's one of the biggest that the world had ever seen.

It's linking all these places that had never been linked before. And I think kind of importantly for the rest of the book, this traffic engine, funded with nickels and quarters from people passing through it, is going to be one of the other major pillars of Robert Moses power from here on out. Yes. And he will eventually become kind of synonymous with the Triborough Bridge Authority. And he has offices all over the city.

Elliott Kalin

But the offices on Randall's island of the Trar Bridge authority, like, that's his headquarters, that's his Roman. I know you'll be delighted when they talk about how they had their own flag and their own seal. You know, they're basically like a city within a city. And all that is going to happen. And so this big project, and we'll see in future episodes, Moses is not just thinking this is a huge bridge, he's thinking this is a huge lever of power that the Triborough Bridge authority, which is ostensibly built, ostensibly exists to build this bridge and then build the.

Roman Mars

Bridge and stop and stop. The key is that it usually stops, but not under Robert Moses. Not under Robert Moses. It doesn't have to stop. But that's all for.

Elliott Kalin

We'll get to those future machinations when Caro tells us about them. The point is that in 1934, Moses is, as always, seeing this as a way to get his other stuff done, too. He's going to link this up to his parkways. He's going to build new parks on Randall's island and ward's island, even if that means kicking out the city hospital for the feeble minded and tubercular and the Manhattan State hospital for the insane. He's so good at finding things that have been undervalued and then making value out of them.

And one of these things is these islands, because until now they've just been a place, even though it's centrally located in the middle of the city, a place just to dump the unwanted. And unfortunately, the plans that Tammany put together for the Tribrow bridge, they're not great. We mentioned already they didn't plan any roads to actually go to the bridge. He finds that the Manhattan terminus for the bridge is 25 blocks farther north than it really should be, which means that if you go do that, you're going to have to drive kind of 50 unnecessary blocks, 25 up and then 25 back again, which is like two and a half miles. But he learns they did that because William Randolph Hearst, one of the most powerful newspaper barons in the city, everyone knows that he was the slight inspiration for Citizen Kane, that he owned some land there that he wanted to sell to the city.

And Moses is like, I'm not gonna pick a fight with a guy who owns newspapers. So we're just gonna leave that there. We're gonna leave that 125th street, and. This is another one of these little jags in the road that were determined by rich people that Robert Moses accepts, you know, despite his character of being the champion of the people. Exactly.

When power meets power, power will accommodate power. When power meets not powerful, it will get rid of it. Like, for instance, the whole bridge, the original plans call it, for it to be covered in granite because there's some Tammany guys who own granite quarries, and that means the bridge is going to cost many millions of dollars more than it's supposed to. And they also mention, oh, by the way, in the designs, they also. The lanes are too narrow.

So where it says eight lanes in this part, it's really only going to be six lanes on this double deck, 16 lane design. This bridge is. It's not designed properly. And two years earlier, Moses had looked at these plans, and he was like, can we remove the granite? And the engineer on the bridge was a guy who had been a Tammany man since 1886.

And he goes, no. And now Moses is his boss, and he calls him, and he says, what's more important, the granite or the excess roads that we should spend the money on? And the guy goes, the granite? And Moses goes, you're fired. So he hires this new engineer, the swiss designer of the George Washington Bridge.

His name is Othmar Hermann Amon, which is my new favorite name in the book. There's so many good names in this book. I've never read anyone named Othmar. Someday I hope to. And they have this new plan.

They're not going to have granite. It's going to be a single deck. There's going to be six lanes on the Manhattan arm, eight lanes on the other arms, and the cost of the bridge goes down from a projected $51 million to $30 million. And now there's going to be a surplus in the budget that they can use to build some parkway links. As long as they're defined as approach roads.

It doesn't matter if the road goes many miles farther, as long as it approaches the bridge. Well, that's right, because the money from the PWA is bridge money. And rightfully, he goes to pwa and says, well, well, bridge money doesn't matter if roads don't connect to those bridges. So let's use some of that money for approach roads. And again, this is one of those things where it's not quite like the war memorial playgrounds, where you just slap a plaque on it and make it work.

Roman Mars

I think this is legitimately an expansion of the idea in the spirit of the idea somewhat. I think. So he's making the idea work for him. I think he's making the spirit work for him. And when there's not land available for approach roads, Moses makes it.

Elliott Kalin

He's dumping sand and stone into the water off Jackson Heights to make land. And there's a section where it's all about these kind of elaborate Rubik's cube moves he has to do in order to find the land along 125th street that he can use, where he's finding old covenants written to the deeds of the businesses there that say the city can take some of the land. And then he's kind of making deals with one business that will build this tunnel if it means you don't have access to the water anymore. And he manages to kind of finagle money from the city government and the federal government, and then the authority is going to pay for some of it. He's brilliant at not just seeing what can be built, but then making the deals and the arrangements so that it can be built, so that not just what should be there, but what can be there.

And this is kind of a little preview of a chapter we'll see later on, where Cara will go into a lot of detail about the different ways Moses cuts down the amount of money that he needs for a project. And finally, by the end, he gets permission to build parks on Randall and Wards island. They say you can build a 10,000 seat stadium. He goes, no, I need a 70,000 seat stadium. And it needs the largest movable outdoor stage in the world.

And as we'll see later, this theater gets drastically misused just to present the kinds of things that Robert Moses thinks people should watch, which is, well, we'll get to that later. But it essentially becomes the private kingdom of. Is it guy Lombardo? I think. And he's like, the labor won't cost the city anything because the federal government's gonna pay for it.

So he convinces the mayor, the governor, kick all the asylum patients off the islands, tear down those buildings, we can do it. But while he's doing all this reconstruction for positive reasons, defensible reasons, he has one thing at the end of the chapter that he does out of a sense of pure hatred and spite, just for hatred of Jimmy Walker. He says, I control Central park now. I'm going to tear down the Central park casino. And there is no financial sense in this.

It's still a functioning business that could give the city money. There's no aesthetic sense in it. It's a beautiful building. It was lavishly and lovingly made. It's a historic piece of the city.

There's a community sense to keep it up. It is something that the community could use, but he refuses to let it stand because he just hates walker. He hated the way Walker treated Al Smith. And this causes the first kind of glimmers of defection from these reformers. And they realize that this bill that Moses wrote, that they supported, it gives him the power to do anything to any park, anything without oversight, without reason.

He can destroy anything. This one judge, he puts an injunction in place, and he goes, if he can tear down this, he can tear down the obelisk in Central park, this egyptian obelisk that is thousands of years old that sits outside the Metroid museum, that gets appealed to the apple court. And the applicort is like, we don't like it, but the way this law is written, yeah, he can tear that down. He can do whatever he wants. They start to realize, oh, all this stuff that we did because we trusted him, he can do things that we did not intend for him to do.

And they tear down the casino. And except for some stained glass windows that get repurposed in a police station, it's just gone. It's gone forever. We'll never see it. And I can't help but wondering if it was still standing, maybe my dad would have proposed to my mom there instead of tavern on the green.

We'll never know. That's one of those what ifs, folks, the sliding doors moment, you know, alternate universe. And this is really true spite, because. And it's really kind of odd because Jimmy Walker has, like, left the stage and gone to Europe with his mistress. At this point, he's a non entity.

Yeah. And he's just associated with this casino because it was his sort of personal playground. There's no reason why you can't scrub it of these associations and make it into something that would work for the city. You could make it something wholesome or whatever, but he just, the symbol, he just, he wants it erased and eradicated, and he does it. And as soon as the appellate court rules, he just, before anyone else can appeal to another, higher level of court, he just knocks the thing down.

Yeah, he just destroys it. And it's the lesson from this that he learns is I can do whatever I want. I know this. In the parks, I'm a king. And it's going to eventually lead.

In a later episode, he will attempt to destroy a much more historic structure in New York City that has much more meaning to it, fully knowing that the law that he wrote says he can do it. And if no one else is going to stop in through the other levers of power, he's unstoppable. And so it's this first moment we see Robert Moses started making the bad guy turn in our last episode. He is now kind of a bad guy working for exciting and good purposes. He's building all these parks.

He's making this big bridge, but he's going to get more and more bad guy from this point on. The real thing that changes for him is that, but he's gonna be focused on things that are not just parks anymore. And it's gonna center more on roads, and then it's gonna center more on housing. And all of a sudden, these reformers are very much not going to like this man. It turns out when the parks man turns his godlike eye to things that are not parks, they're like, oh, hold on a second.

Maybe we shouldn't have given the best bill drafter in Albany the ability to get whatever he wants. Hold on a sec. That's right. But we will cover that on the next episode. But on this episode, we're going to now talk to representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez about what it means to get things done and grind people under her heel.

It'd be so funny if we talked to her and she's like, yes, that's what you have to do. You've got to crush people. Wow. This is not what we expected.

Roman Mars

Arkel believes in delightful design for every home. And thanks to their online only model, they have some really delightful prices. Too. Everyone who's listened to this show for years knows how in the bag I am for article furniture. I love it.

I have a ton of it in my home. But our sound engineer Martin Gonzalez just redid his whole living room with article. He sent me a picture and it was almost comical how much article furniture he stuffed into his Brooklyn apartment. So I'm gonna let him tell you what he thinks. I'm sitting here enjoying my brand new article living room set.

I replaced my junkie free and craigslisted furniture with a very nice set from the Seni collection. I got a sofa, loveseat and chair all in matching volcanic gray were delivered right to my door. All I did was pop open the boxes and screw some legs on. I am so much more excited to have people over now that I'm not embarrassed of my furniture. I did in fact use this offer code that Roman is about to tell you.

Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com nine nine and the discount will automatically be applied at checkout. That's article.com nine nine for dollar 50 off your first purchase of dollar 100 or more.

Reading minds is hard, but the good news is you don't have to user testing helps you remove the guesswork and build products with greater confidence by including direct customer feedback at each stage of the product development process. This result allows you to quickly build experiences that meet changing customer expectations while minimizing risk and costly rework. With user testing, you have a trusted partner in experience research. We empower Ux research, product and design teams to make higher confidence decisions with human insights. Learn more today@usertesting.com.

Invisible our special guest on this episode of the 99% invisible breakdown of the power broker is representative Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. She has served the 14th New York congressional district since 2019, taking office at the age of 29, making her the youngest woman to serve in the US Congress. Years ago. In her first term, someone asked her what she did on the train from New York to DC, and she said that, among other things, she listened to 99% invisible. So I am delighted that we get to have her on the show.

Representative Ocasio Cortez what is your relationship with Robert Moses and this book the Power Broker? Well, you know, in some ways I actually think if it wasn't for Robert Moses, I probably wouldn't have run for Congress. You know, my dad grew up when the Bronx was burning and he actually became an architect as a direct inspiration of and in a lot of ways, he was inspired by all this calamity around him. He saw all of these buildings that were burning down, the arson that was happening out of. And at a very young age, at six years old, he decided that he saw all of these buildings tumbling down, and he wanted to be one of the people who built them back up.

Wow. And that's how he decided to become an architect. That's how he remained committed to staying in the Bronx. It was very rare for people, especially from the Bronx, especially Latinos, especially Puerto Rican at that time, to get any sort of a higher ed degree in that era, but particularly to become an architect. And so I grew up with a very unique and distinct perspective about why this happened and also the community response to it, and kind of like this alternative perspective of what was happening to the people on the ground while the cross Bronx expressway was constructed, while landlords were kind of setting fire to their own buildings, and all of the fallout and social fallout that happened as a result of civil engineering and urban design decisions.

That's so fascinating. I feel like I was very late to this in terms of incorporating this into my worldview. But you had it so young. What did that do to you? I think it really was a big source of the commitment to community in my family, actually, it's interesting because I didn't grow up in a particularly explicitly political family.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

I'd say they didn't strongly identify as Democrats or Republicans. They always tended to vote for Democrats were in New York. But it was a family that was very rooted in community and the impact of these decisions. And so I think I grew up a lot with that idea of the decisions around us are made by people. And it's really important for us to not just pay attention to it, but that we.

We can have a hand in it. And, you know, sometimes it wasn't. Most of the times, it wasn't even through an explicit political process. It was largely done through organizing communities around us and in much less formal ways, getting someone a job down the street, you know, checking in on people, seeing if we could get them a good union city job. And that was a big part of what shaped my upbringing.

Roman Mars

And when did this idea that there were people making these decisions that were possibly or probably making lives worse by those decisions? When did that coalesce into the name Robert Moses in your consciousness? That I think happened maybe a little bit later on. I wouldn't be surprised if I had heard the name growing up, but it was. It probably kind of washed over, I think, like, maybe in my late teens or early twenties is when I started to really connect those dots more explicitly, because that's when I started really asking my dad these stories, because, you know, he would always talk about this time, about why the buildings were going down and the arsons that were happening.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

And I started to dig a lot more into why that time happened. And it came to really the construction of the cross Bronx expressway when Reagan came and said that the South Bronx looked like Dresden after World War Two. And then I kind of dug into why the cross Bronx? And how did that happen? And I think that's where Robert Moses came into the picture of my consciousness.

Roman Mars

So your district includes so many Robert Moses projects. The Triboro Bridge, the Bronx Whitestone Bridge, the Throgsnext Bridge, the cross Bronx Expressway. What is it like living in a district shaped by so many Moses productions? It's like the opposite of entering houses of faith, where, you know, you'll walk into this cathedral, and every design decision is to make it feel liberatory and expansive and soaring. And I think one of the things that I really did not appreciate until I went to college and lived in a different city is how much the civic and urban planning really affects the psyche of the communities that occupy and have to endure these decisions.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Because until you experience something else, you're just living in it like you think it's just life. And there is a psychic weight to living in communities that are designed to be disconnected there. It affects your social life. My neighborhood that I'm from in the Bronx, and park, Chester, we have some of the longest commutes in all of New York City. And it is a commute not just to work.

It is a commute to do anything. It is a commute to connect socially. It is a commute to connect spiritually. If you are part of a faith community, it is a commute to go get your groceries. And so these decisions are designed to disconnect, disempower, and isolate people.

And when you layer that with a lot of Robert Moses racist intent, to very much do so to a very specific kind of people, black, brown, low income, poor, etcetera. And when you contrast that with other neighborhoods or other cities, you can really see how it actually builds. In organizing challenges to communities who actually want to empower themselves politically, it makes. Sense that it would have that kind of psychic toll that his stated reason is people need to get through this area much faster. And what that means is it's an area that you're not meant to go to or to stay in.

Elliott Kalin

Its only value is as a way to get from one place to another. And I was on the cross Bronx expressway just a few weeks ago and was thinking about looking from side to side on it, just thinking about, like, yeah, this is. To walk from that building to that building should take a couple minutes, but there's this enormous road. There's this cut going right between the two, and an almost biblical sized division that is between two places. You're saying that it's a real.

It gets in the way of organizing things like that. How do you get around something like that to maintain a life that might have to be on opposite sides of this enormous, almost like a moat cutting off two sections from each other? Well, it still persists today. You know, I think there are things we can do, but there's a certain aspect to it that there's no getting around it. This is a gash through an enormous community, not just in New York City, but also one of the more famed communities in the United States.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

And it is designed to separate. You know, it was a couple, I think it was like a year or two ago, the New York Times had come out with this New York City visual map, and what it kind of pegged what people called certain neighborhoods in the city, like, what is Greenwich Village, you know, what counts as bed Stuy. And one of the interesting responses that I saw is that when you would go to the Bronx, people a lot of times don't. If you live in the Bronx, they don't always call where they live by their neighborhood. They will say, like, the street that they live on, or they'll call it by the boulevard.

So, like in Hunts Point, a lot of people don't say, I live by Hunts Point. Sometimes they do. But a lot of people will say, I live on Southern Boulevard, or people will say, I live by East Tremont. And I think that really shows, like, even today, the culture of the Bronx is very much defined, even in very small ways, in how we relate to the infrastructure around us, because so many of these neighborhoods have been artificially cut through. If you take the example of Hunts Point, hunts Point is on the other side of Longwood, and what goes in the middle?

It's Hunt's point. Then you kind of have, I believe, like the Bruckner Expressway. And then on the other side, you have the neighborhood, Longwood. But a lot of these neighborhoods have been artificially segmented. And so people don't even sometimes know what to call where they live.

And so they've developed these new ways of relating to the built space around them. And so to me, like how you organize around that, it is very challenging. And it's unsurprising that now the cross Bronx itself has become a unifying target of activism in the Bronx. And that is actually the thing that has separated us for decades, is now the thing that is starting to unite us in, in order to build a movement around capping the cross Bronx, around environmental justice activism and many, many other topics as well. So in a way, you could say Robert Moses is a real hero by giving them something to unite around.

Elliott Kalin

Finally, he made it happen. In a way.

Roman Mars

So in the book, the power broker Robert Caro gives, he explains both Robert Moses and Governor Al Smith coming to Albany, studying really hard, learning the way the government works, learning how to get things done. And when we spoke with Jamal Bouie in our second episode, he expressed his disdain for term limits because he thinks that the first couple of terms, you're just learning how to do things. And what is your experience with that? Like, has government, you know, is it the same way? Has it gotten more intuitive?

Do you still, what does it take to learn the ropes the way they did, you know, 100 years ago and today? It's really, really true. I am in my third term here in Congress, and it really does take years to truly map out and understand how things work. There is the way that people tell you things work, or on paper, or if you read the law, this agency is responsible for that thing. But then there's the way that the world actually works and having to map out, yes, like this agency technically has jurisdiction over that thing, but the people who really have influence that make the call as to whether that agency gives it a green light or a red light, is someone else entirely.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

And one of the most effective political tools that oftentimes the opposition uses in government is the wild goose chase. And a lot of times you spend your first couple years trying to do something and being sent on wild goose chases, trying to track down what is the door that actually opens the possibility that you are seeking. And there is no way around that. I don't think. I think that's just part of a function of not just government, but almost any organization knowing who the real gatekeepers are, who the real positions of influence are, and that is ever evolving and shifting and changing, because knowledge is power, and knowledge should be power.

You know, I think that people who know how to do things well, who are skilled and effective, ideally, and of course, democratically, we want to make sure that there are small democratic structures around it. But at the same time, you do want the people in charge to be knowing what they're doing and having that balance between those two things. So for me, I feel like I'm just kind of hitting a place where I'm more effective. I'm able to be more effective than I have been before. And the steps between wanting to do something and getting it done are shortening, not just because of a substance understanding, but because of a social and bureaucratic and governance understanding.

Elliott Kalin

And the only way to learn that, it sounds like, is to really experience it, is to be actively seeking it and paying attention. It isn't like they swear you in, and then they're like, here's the. Let me hand you the actual instructions for how these things work. Don't show anyone what I just gave you. You have to put in the work of learning it yourself is what it sounds like.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Yeah. Especially to be honest, especially if you're a woman or if you come from a community of color, or if you run and you come from a working class background and you don't come from a highly connected political or wealth based background, you have a different track. You have a steeper learning curve. Mentorship is everything. And people from certain backgrounds or even sometimes from certain political spaces or political circles have access to a certain degree of an inside track of greater mentorship, greater social esteem that can, you know, get you to move faster.

And when you are, it's not just a question of identity, but it is a factor. You know, if you come in as a woman and you don't know how to golf and you are less relatable to the people who have historically held these positions, you either need to really, really fight to win the trust of those folks, or you just need to keep really fighting for longer. And so sometimes it's just a scrap. Yeah, that makes sense. Something that's come up a few times when we were talking about the book is personalities and how much personalities and that Al Smith and Robert Moses.

Elliott Kalin

Robert Moses. So depends on Al Smith's mentorship. It's because Al Smith just likes being around him. Like, they just get along as two guys who like to sing together. Whereas if they.

I imagine it's much harder if there's not someone already there who sees that connection in you and is like, well, you remind me of me, so I want to be with you and kind of guide you through this. You know, it's all personality. It's hugely personality driven. And I think sometimes people, and I think it's understandable to look at things like this and be like, I can't believe this is how decisions are made in our government. Like, really?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Like, just. Cause, like, some guy. Like, some other guy or whatever. Like, that's how this happened. But you think about your own workplace, and this.

This is how things happen oftentimes in our own workplace. You know, like, it's important to, like, the people that you are spending huge amounts of time with. I see it. I'm gonna be honest. I see it behind closed doors.

Yeah. Sometimes certain decisions suffer because the person advocating for it is annoying.

Like, just straight up, like, I've. I've seen people in power having to choose. And, like, sometimes this happens where it's, like, all things are equal and there's a tiebreaker. Right. And what breaks the tie?

Oftentimes, it's not that huge. Enormous decisions are just, like, all made just because of this one thing. But, you know, there's a lot of ties, and people in positions of power are tiebreakers. And a lot of times, it comes down to gut. Who do I trust?

How do I feel about this? What do I think about that person's judgment? Do I understand where they're coming from? And it matters. It matters.

It's crazy, but it matters. And likability matters. This comes up a lot in the book because Robert Moses is, like, a graduate thesis was pretty much a treatise on why people like Al Smith shouldn't be governor, but they become friends. And then he amasses so much power because of the support of Al Smith. And, you know, contrary to that, Al Smith, you know, pretty much agreed with Roosevelt on almost everything.

Roman Mars

His successor. But when the new deal was enacted, Al Smith was just completely against it, even though it sort of contained all the values he seemed to have when he was governing, just because by that point, he was mad at Roosevelt. Like, he didn't like Roosevelt, and so he hated the New Deal. And it just is, like, over and over again. You see this in this book, and it sounds like that really rings true to today as well.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Oh, yeah, I have seen. I mean, it's terrible. It is awful.

And it's not to say that everybody operates in this way, but when we think about governance, there are hundreds of members of Congress. There are thousands of people in positions of decision making power, and some of them are going to be spiteful. And like human nature, I have seen people make terrible, hurtful decisions because they had an axe to grind. And especially kind of, you know, the more you are in places of elevated, kind of bird's eye view decision making, the more, the decisions can feel smaller, even though the impact is so large. And so, yeah, and especially because a lot of times it's about trade offs.

It's not just are you going to do this or not, but it's who is going to get this. And that is a lot easier to facilitate if you are like, people are trying to settle scores and things like that. And to be honest, score settling is also a function of power.

If you are a person in position of power and you continue to allow yourself to be disrespected or crossed, or you let people break their word to you and there is actually no consequence, then people learn that they can break their word to this person and it won't be a big deal. And if you want to be effective, you need to be able to hold someone accountable. And so sometimes it's spite, but also sometimes it's just accountability. Like, you can't let someone walk all over you if you want to get and secure things for the communities that you advocate for. Well, it's interesting the way you're putting it.

Elliott Kalin

It's such a great way of illustrating kind of the two sides of the idea of power, that when we think about power and someone wants power, there's kind of an evil feel to that. But in order to accomplish things, you need a certain amount of power and you need to have other people respect your ability to do it and also trust that you can do it. And so what you're saying is, like, sometimes you need to be, it's almost like you need to be slightly petty in order to maintain the foundation that allows you to convince other people that they should do things or you can do things. Yeah. Which is unfortunate, I guess, that it can't just be just like sweet wishes and good arguments to get people on your side.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

I think about it. I think about it as a sense, a proper sense of justice. That's a great way to put it. That's a great way to put it. This is the difference between you're an effective politician and I'm an effective comedy writer.

Elliott Kalin

So I'm like, yeah, yeah. So it's just power. You're like a mob boss and you're like, this is about justice. This is about, this is about effective justice. Justice.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

But I think you hit at a very good point, which is, but also it illuminates a certain paradox, which is if we all think that only terrible people want power and we adopt that as almost like a cultural cliche or norm, then only terrible people will pursue power. Because people who want to be good and good hearted, then associate power with a negative thing, and then people that that does not bother so much will seek it. And so then we get a self selection bias. And so I think that, you know, it's not about power or not power. It's about how you use it.

It's about standards for which we pursue it and standards for which we allow ourselves to be held accountable to when power is in the mix. That gets so at the heart of what we've been talking about with the book, where Robert Moses at times, he's this very ambitious public, civic person, and he has goals that are often positive goals, not as much when he's carving up the Bronx, but when he is earlier in his career, when he wants to build the best public beach that there's ever been, and he wants to have park space where there isn't. And the way he does accomplishes so much, that is by misusing that power and being kind of a monster. And so how do you strike me as not a monster? And so how do you exert power to achieve those goals without losing sight of the ideals that brought to those goals in the first place?

Elliott Kalin

How do you keep yourself balanced in that way? Well, to me, I think of it as a discipline. You know, people think about politics in terms of, like, the food fight that you see in the media, but it is a vocation, actually. And I think we don't talk about the vocation of politics that much in our public discourse. And what we rob ourselves when we don't discuss politics as a vocation are the skills, disciplines, and kind of lifelong sharpening that is required when you are in a position of public service.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

And so to me, that question of efficacy and ethics, that's the iron sharpen iron element of this is there are certain tightropes that you're always walking and you cannot lean too far in one way or another. If you are trying to be far to kind of answering every single ethical question under the sun in whether you decide if you're going to use this, you know, what printer paper you're going to use, the library, then you're never going to get anything done. You're never going to build the world that we're fighting for. At the same time, if you are too expedient in your decision making and too dismissive in the name of efficacy, then you will end up unrecognizable. And so when I think about the sets of questions that I'm asking myself on a near daily basis, this is often one of it.

It's on literally day by day, case by case basis. Should we make this trade off, or should we stand and fight? Is a daily question. It's like, what is the hill worth dying on? And that is something that I think is very often communally and community based.

Do a lot of consensus building. And so it's not just me making a decision, but I will ask and talk to a lot of people and say, you know what? On this one, let's just say, eff it and go for it. And on other times, it's like, this is too important to get wrong. That's a huge element.

But there are many other strings like that, too. Yeah. People who really hate Margaret Moses can sort of admire him in two different aspects. One is that Jones beach is pretty great. Okay, so is Orchard beach, by the way, which is also the district.

Elliott Kalin

I feel like that's the most amazing thing, is it's like, how do I. How do I promote my district? Hold on. My district has the better beach. This is great.

Hold on. I'm shrewd. Jones is shrewd. Exactly. Every opportunity.

Every opportunity to bring somebody to the Bronx, somebody to the district. Yeah, but the other thing is that he got bigger things done. Like, a lot of people say that there should be some more Robert Moses spirit in things, just the things that I want to do. And you have big, ambitious plans for the world. You sort of brought the Green New Deal to people's attention.

Roman Mars

When you join Congress, how do you sort of implement big things? Because I would imagine those ethical and efficacy questions get more and more complicated. Like, exponentially more complicated. The bigger and bigger the idea is, the more land you have to move, the more people you have to get on board, the more, like, social systems you have to change from the ground up. How do you make that stuff happen and dream big?

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Yeah, I mean, we're also in such a different political landscape in terms of power now than we were back then, too. Now private interests, special interests have much more sophisticated lobbies. The power of the state was much stronger back then. There was no CBO score and budget hawks back then. But I think now what it requires, too, is different techniques and a willingness to experiment.

I think a lot of times folks talk about efficacy and. But they'll say, like, you hear this all the time, I hate this phrase in DC. They go, oh, I'm not a show horse. I'm a workhorse. And it's like, so you're just giving up the entire mantle of public power and the interest of public power.

It is a part of being effective. And we can't moralize or consider some avenues as more or less virtuous than others. I think that for me, when it comes to implementation, we rallied enormous public interest and continued to rally enormous public interest. And I think, like, in DC, that's considered dirty or like, low brow. And I just lean into it because I'm like, great Elaine unto myself.

I have no competition. Like, I'm from the Bronx. I don't care. I don't care about, like, if it's highbrow or lowbrow. Like, it's there, I'm gonna use it.

But then on top of that, okay, then you hit the institutional power. This will never get passed. You know, I pissed off all of the gatekeepers and ring holders and all that. And it gets to a point where then they just don't want to move anything out of spite, right? Like, you didn't kiss the ring, you didn't do the proper thing, so, like, we're not gonna move it.

And that was, I think, the story of those early days. And so then I kind of look around and I say, okay, what other levers can I, can I use? I don't need to pass this thing to do the thing, actually, because it's passed in the public consciousness. And so what I started to do was to look for the small ways and unnoticed ways. And so I started to turn to, how do I do things without my name being on it and without Green New Deal being on it, but it actually being a Green New Deal project?

And so my next step was that I started to marshal community project funds. And so in the last couple of years, for the first time in over a decade, Congress started to renew the practice of community funded projects by members of Congress. And so I said, how can I make a Green new Deal project in my community? And then also, how can I contact the hundred or so other co sponsors of the Green New Deal and get them to build Green New Deal projects in their communities? And we won't put Green New Deal in the text, but it will meet all of the standards that it creates good union jobs, that it focuses on underserved communities, and that it helps us decarbonize our economy in ten years.

And so, you know, slowly but surely, one of the things that I did, my project in my first cycle was we went to Throg's neck, right near the throg's neck bridge built by Robert Moses. And I went to SUNY Maritime College, which is one of the only public merchant marine academies that we have in the United States. That's the one I think we talked about earlier in the episode where Franklin Roosevelt wanted it so badly and Robert Moses would not let him have it until Roosevelt was leaving to become president. Yes. Clash of words.

Elliott Kalin

Yeah. And so we went to maritime College, and we said we would like to fund a training program where we train folks here to build the underwater pylons that are good union jobs for offshore wind. And the Merchant Marine Academy said, sUNY maritime said, sounds great. Let's do it. We built an entire facility.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

People go. You get electricians putting on scuba gear and diving into pools, learning how to do electrical work way out in the ocean, and you've got simulators where people are learning how to actually navigate these ships through offshore wind farms. And we're training really good union jobs for people in the Bronx to access in order to access jobs and have jobs that help us decarbonize our economy. None of that. None of the people in power knew what I was up to when we were doing that.

Like, not one. And that first cycle, we authorized 60 plus such projects across the United States. No one's hearing about it. No one knows about it. And that's all the better for me because the more they know about it, the more other people are going to try to block it.

And so I did that very quietly because I, you know, there were too many axes to grind at the time that I didn't want to imperil the goal. And so sometimes being really big and out there is to our advantage, and sometimes it's not. But it's not an either or universal application. It's about understanding and having the discernment of when you use what tools, and that takes time. That takes time and practice to develop.

Roman Mars

Yeah. Yeah. You see that happening with Robert Moses in the book, too. Like, he's trying to figure out, like, how much credit do you give the boss upstairs to get things done? How much do you take on your own so that when the boss gets mad at you, the public rallies to your support?

It's fascinating how universal this is, and it totally makes sense. Yeah. It's like with organizations, or sometimes you're frustrated at work and it's like, ugh, you know, the personality stuff. But also, humans are a medium, and we would love for it to be just like math or science, but it's not because we also need to weigh costs and benefits that are not always immediately apparent. And I think sometimes that's part of the social science of decision making.

Yeah. So also in this section of the book, the episode that you're going to be on, is the introduction of Fiorello LaGuardia, who is your predecessor in your district. Not your immediate predecessor, no. There were a number of predecessors between him and you. My ancestor.

Elliott Kalin

Yes, your ancestral predecessor. How does LaGuardia loom in your consciousness growing up and your consciousness in this job? You know, I think LaGuardia, while he's not as large of a looming figure as Moses is, I think he's also. He's also an example of someone that marshaled the public. And that is in contrast to Moses, who was much more of an internal operator.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

And it shows how both of these kinds of power can be wielded, and also that it's not necessarily an either or decision either. And that a lot of times, people kind of shun one and valorize the other. But if you can kind of lean into both, then you can really clear a lot of road, if you will. Or I should say, subway track. Yeah.

Elliott Kalin

Yeah. We're all about mass transit. This is mass transit express. We're not taking the local. We can make the express from one place to another.

But you're right, we see that in Moses and LaGuardia working together, where Moses is very much the backstage operator, and LaGuardia is the one who specializes seemingly, in appearing publicly everywhere in the city, every day at all times. And when Moses, before that, is working with Governor Al Smith, where he's the one behind the scenes, and Governor Al Smith is the one who's out in public making the case for things and rallying people to it, that they're such complimentary modes of power. And I guess if you can have two people who partner in that way, they can. Those are some of the times that Moses is able to accomplish so many of his better, bigger projects before he goes into the darker side, and he's just like, well, why should we have people in the city when we can just have roads in the city? People just go through it all the time.

Do you find that something that's a method that you're thinking about where it's like, who can I partner with on this thing? Who's someone who can take this aspect of a project, and I'll take this aspect so we can get it, we can handle it in different ways to get it finished? Yeah, absolutely. You can't accomplish anything without public will and public sentiment. There are some things that you can, but it's going to take a lot longer.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

And when you have public support for something, for better or worse, by the way, there are entire industries that are built around influencing public sentiment. And sometimes we see that even today in our politics, where there's some issue or there is something that has sometimes captured the public sentiment, and it actually doesn't line up with public health data at all. It doesn't line up with facts on the ground at all. But if people just. If the vibe just gets really, like, if the vibe just gets contagious and everyone just starts feeling a certain way, even if it's completely divorced from data reality, what we're seeing, there are times when people just feel like crime is up, when crime is actually down.

I think that's a classic example. And it happens. I'm not even talking about just present times. It's happened throughout history. And it is a very effective political tool.

And so making sure that you have that public sentiment is important, even if it's not explicitly around the project that you are talking about, because whatever has public sentiment is what your goal is competing with, and so that it can make things very, very easy. But if you don't have the internal path, it can also be ineffective as well, and vice versa. And so having both the decision makers and building that coalition is really important. I often think about, you know, when in the house, you author a bill, and sometimes you have co leads on the bill, and who you select as your co leads sends a message to the rest of the house about what kind of mission you're on. And so if all of your co leads are, you know, are very outside facing, then sometimes people get the message that this is more of a messaging effort.

This is not to pass. This is to send a message, which is a tool that has its own, you know, role. But sometimes you have a coalition of people that indicate something else, that you are very serious about passing this thing, or, you know, this is a shot off the bow. Or sometimes, like, someone has a primary and they're trying to get, like, their base off their back, and that's why they signed on to it. And so people read your coalition as a signal of what your plans and intentions are.

Roman Mars

Yeah, that makes sense. You're an advocate for public housing. I'm an advocate for public housing. If it wasn't for HUD paying my rent as a kid, I don't know where I would be today. Robert Moses built most of the public housing in New York City, and a lot of it is considered not very functional, not very good.

The execution and administration of public housing has often been lacking, and I think it is unfair fairly sullied the public housing as a concept. How do you do it? Right? I mean, it's important, this. I think the divestment and the dissolution of public housing is a story about race.

Yes. And I think it's important for us to talk about that very explicitly, because the public housing of Robert Moses Day, even though he was discriminatory and had a lot of class bias in addition to racial bias, you know, when public housing was occupied by mostly white families, it was at its peak. It was quite idyllic in terms of public policy. You had housing that was affordable, that you could raise a family in, that was built with community infrastructure in mind. These weren't just apartments in a building, but there were playgrounds.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

There are community spaces. There's senior programming, there's childcare. And it worked. It worked. It was when public housing began to be integrated and you started to have black residents, residents move in.

In New York City, a lot of puerto rican residents start to move in that we started to see the mass disinvestment of public housing because it started to be seen through a politically racialized lens. And in my view, it still is. But we also know that public housing has been enormously successful. And, in fact, you know, one of the pieces of legislation that I have introduced is the repeal of the fair cloth Amendment, which currently bans construction of new public housing units in the United States. And if we repeal that, I think once people experience public housing in an integrated and socially integrated way, it would create public will for more of it.

In addition to social housing models, in addition to lots of other kinds of housing models that can decommodify the housing market that we're currently living in, that is completely unsustainable. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing that people talk about when they really examine public housing projects, even ones that are sort of notorious, like Pruitt Igoe, there's a section, or there's a period of time when that existed, when it was integrated, and there was proper investment and proper maintenance and proper care, and it functioned in all the high ideals in which it was intended. And then when white flight happened and the divestment happened, then that's when it falls apart, because these design systems are not quite as robust, and they need to be more robust, like, to take a light that goes out, that doesn't turn into a hallway, that becomes dangerous, that doesn't become into this.

Roman Mars

You know, like, it takes people constantly, like, you know, like, thinking about it as a system and treating it as a system. And I just, you know, I just think that people have gotten the wrong idea of it, and I, like, want a better world in which public housing is just part of the fabric of our cities, you know? Yeah. And it's a. It's a similar thing, actually, in New York City City with free public college tuition.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Our cuny system was free. It was free. You could go to college for free. It was after the Civil rights Act and the civil rights movement, which forced integration of our public systems, that we started getting divestment from our public systems. And it's really important that I think people understand that, is that this is not just, like, just government abandonment.

This is a story about race. And part of our journey in healing our racial divide is by advocating for the reestablishment of integrated economic social safety nets that aren't blind to racial injustice, that are conscious of it. But I think that the way that we do that is by reminding ourselves that we as a people, as a society, as a working class, even as a poor class, we deserve nice things. We deserve human dignity, and we deserve tuition free public college. It's not a pipe dream.

We deserve housing that we're not spending every single ounce of our non food or medicine income. Oftentimes, people making those trade offs. We deserve housing that doesn't suck all of that up. We deserve good schools, but we have to demand them across lines of race and culture. If we're not fighting for black Americans right to that, if we aren't seeing cultural inequities, then what it means is that we're denying it to ourselves.

And it's not just a fight for equality, it's a fight for access. That's really what it is. Because if you can, we see this over and over again. If you make public housing, like, when what people think, like, let's just get real about it, right? If what people think, if public housing is black residents and then we have this internalized, racialized construct about what that means, or there's some sort of, like, media value on what that means, then people are going to otherize it and think, somebody else.

This benefits somebody else. It's not for me. So I'm okay. I'll look the other way if it's defunded or if in the wintertime the gas goes out and the heat's off, but when we reject that as another and we say, wait, if that's happening to them, it's gonna happen to me. It happening to them?

Is it happening to me? Then that's how we get there. That's how we do that. And that's why I think that the racial dimension of Robert Moses legacy is not just. It's not just a cautionary tale.

It's not just, oh, yeah, oh, and by the way, this guy was, like, mad racist. It's not just that. If only Robert Carroll could have said it that way, the book would be so much shorter. It's not that. It's like it actually shows us the way forward.

Like, if this was truly unacceptable, not from a, oh, we don't believe in inequality, but, like, we are one. Like, we are one. If we oppose it on that basis, we probably would have a lot more public transit in New York City right now. We would absolutely, without a doubt, have a lot more and well invested public housing. I think that we would still have a tuition free public college system.

And it's not an accident that in the aftermath of Moses kind of peak era, you see the emergence in New York City of the young lords of the Black Panthers who are directly advocating for the infrastructure investments and speaking to the inequities that he was starting, that he had just created. And I think that's part of the story, right? Where his chapter ends, ours begins. It feels like, for me, it harkens back to something you said at the beginning of the conversation, where you're talking about choices, and it's something that comes up in our discussions on the episodes, too, is each of these things is a choice. There's no inevitable way that public housing has to be.

Elliott Kalin

It's not that. Oh, it always has to be like that. Or if the light bulb goes out, you just leave it out. There's nothing you can do about it. And if those are choices that they made, then it feels like we can make the other choice.

The other choice is available. They haven't fully foreclosed it. Even if it does seem like it's a lot harder after all that stuff's been built to. To change things. It's amazing how systems get so tied to physical things.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, the thing is, like, kind of to your point earlier about some of Robert Moses earlier work that there were benefits for, you know, his advocacy for public pools in New York City, the construction of public pools, the construction of beaches. You know, so he, of course, had racist intent with that. However, earlier on, you saw that in how he administered, like, the administration of the pools, but not necessarily in the construction of them. And so, as a result, to this day, now, actually, public pools in New York City are an access to public pools are an enormous racial benefit.

And not just a racial benefit, but a class benefit that people from all sorts of backgrounds who would normally not be able to access a club or whatever it may be, can learn how to swim, can enjoy the pools that we have in places like Astoria park and Orchard beach is like. I think of Orchard beach and City island as working class hamptons. That's where everyday people go to soak up the sun and enjoy the space. And those same plazas that Robert Moses built around that time during this new Deal era, those same plazas still exist today and in fact are in the process of having just been reinvested in and overhauled because that is actually a hundred plus year legacy that has withstood the test of time. And you know, I think he would be appalled at who is going there today, but it is to all of our benefit.

Elliott Kalin

Luckily, he doesn't have a of saying it anymore. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, representative Ocasio Cortez, for spending time with us and having us talk about Robert Moses in the book and your district. It's mean the world to me to have you here. So thank you so much.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Of course, it's wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me on.

Elliott Kalin

Next month we're finishing up part four, the use of power, covering chapters 21 through 24. That's pages 402 through 496 in my amazingly huge printed copy of the Power Broker. In the meantime, you can check me out on my other podcast, the flophouse, every Saturday, and you can also join. The conversation with other powerbroker readers on our discord. The link is on our website or go to discord.

Gg 99 PI the 99% invisible breakdown of the Power Broker is produced by Isabelle angel. It's edited by committee. The music is by Swan Rial and the mix is by Dara Hirsch. 99% Invisible's executive producer is Kathy Tu. Our senior editor is Delaney Hall.

Roman Mars

Kurt Kohlstedt is the digital director. The rise of team includes Sara Bake, Chris Borube, Jason de Leon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Gabriella Gladney, Martine Gonzalez, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Lay Bosh, Medawn, Jacob Maldonado Medina, Kelly Prime, Joe Rosenberg, Nina Pato and me. Roman Mars. The 99% invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. The art for this series was created by Aaron Nestor.

We are part of the Stitcher and SiriusXM podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building in beautiful uptown Oakland, California. You can find the show on the usual social media sites as well as our own discord server where we have fun discussions about power Broker, about our architecture, about movies, about music, about all kinds of good stuff. It's where I'm hanging out most of the time these days. You can find a link to that discord server, as well as every past episode of 99 PI at 99 PI.org.

They learn to work together in some way because of Franklin Roosevelt's love of nipples, and so we will learn about that in the next section, Chapter 17, the mother of accommodation, when we come back. What a tease. Love of nipples.

Now is your time to get into a new Doctor Horton home by taking advantage of their national red tag savings event going on right. Now through April 21. Stop by any of their participating communities and find select red tag homes at incredible pricing. So whether you're buying your first home. Or looking for an upgrade, you don't.

Want to miss the red tag savings event going on right now. Discover the Dr. Horton Difference@Drhorton.com Doctor Horton America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder. You can start your day off right. When you find a professional on Angie to get your plumbing right.

Elliott Kalin

First, connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well, visit angie.com. You can do this when you angie that.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

You can do this when you angie that.

The Power Broker #04: Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Primary Topic

Episode Summary

Main Takeaways

Episode Chapters

1: Introduction to Robert Moses

2: The Rise and Use of Power

3: The Impact of Power on Public Projects

Actionable Advice

About This Episode

People

Companies

Books

Guest Name(s):

Content Warnings:

Transcript